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General Climbing Discussion

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Should a guidebook eBook PDF be free?

Superstu

Online Now
26/07/2012
9:41:09 PM

Spot poll to see if the Sutherland guidebook should be free to download. It's currently $2.99.

I don't care about making any money, I'll buy a bag of bolts with whatever I end up with and hand it to mike.
But I don't want to piss off any of the stores who are kindly selling the printed edition. And I don't want to set a precedent that future guidebook editors feel that their eBook editions have to be free, some people might want to put a few bucks on them. But as Simon says, the future is 0's and 1's, so what do people think?
I want to encourage both comprehensive guidebook writing.... and digital media!

pecheur

26/07/2012
10:05:49 PM

The future may be 0's and 1's but not necessarily free.

If people are stocking it for you and you aren't like Vertical Life making cash through ads etc, then I think you should charge.

rodw

26/07/2012
10:20:50 PM

$2.99 isn't that much...if ya don't want it do like ya say and give to a bolting fund, but if ya gonna do that charge more I say..its the least the bottom feeders can do :)

pmonks

27/07/2012
2:41:30 AM

How about a poll asking about different prices (including "free")?

You might find that a lower price (say $0.99) results in more bludgers becoming customers, and total revenue goes up while complaints about the price also go down. Given that the COGS of digital media is basically zero, this model can work really well (as Apple has demonstrated with the App Store).

Cam McKenzie

27/07/2012
7:16:34 AM

Can't say I'm ever planning on climbing in the Sutherland Shire, but being somewhat involved in digital distribution of stuff, I'd agree that just because it's digital doesn't mean that it should be free (regardless of what the general perception of this is). The same amount of work goes into generating the content for a digital distribution, it just doesn't have the overheads for physically publishing stuff.

Charge away I reckon. $3 is less than a beer. If people aren't going to buy it at that price, they're probably not going to buy it for $1 either.

Batey

27/07/2012
7:44:28 AM

On 27/07/2012 Cam McKenzie wrote:
>Can't say I'm ever planning on climbing in the Sutherland Shire, but being
>somewhat involved in digital distribution of stuff, I'd agree that just
>because it's digital doesn't mean that it should be free (regardless of
>what the general perception of this is). The same amount of work goes into
>generating the content for a digital distribution, it just doesn't have
>the overheads for physically publishing stuff.
>
>Charge away I reckon. $3 is less than a beer. If people aren't going to
>buy it at that price, they're probably not going to buy it for $1 either.

Couldn't agree more. $3 vs $1 not much difference there. I think when you compare a project like your guide book vs the free online guides and sites its worth a lot more the $3 for a digital copy.

sliamese

27/07/2012
7:52:05 AM

Could you create an online wiki type database. Allowing people to add new content etc as required, or locking editing rights to a completed crag. People can then print what they need at their own cost.

I think this helps keep up with constant stream of new routes, and more importantly instills a some sense of ownership within the community. I mean that people feel a bit more included and will help more readily with things such as track work, anchor maintainence etc

But if your doing work on something, you dohave every right to sell it i guess!

Check out thesarvo.com for some ideas

Batey

27/07/2012
7:56:32 AM

On 27/07/2012 sliamese wrote:
>Could you create an online wiki type database. Allowing people to add new
>content etc as required, or locking editing rights to a completed crag.
>People can then print what they need at their own cost.
>

something like this ;-)

http://routes.sydneyrockies.org.au/confluence/display/nswrock/Sydney+Rockclimbing+Guidebooks

Superstu

Online Now
27/07/2012
9:16:18 AM

I think in the case of community-written guidebooks the proceeds should go towards rebolting, as the information has been contributed by lots of people, the guidebook editor is just collecting and sorting the info.

But with guides like the araps guide where clearly a huge amount of work has gone into it by the editors and its an amazing beautiful thing, as artists the authors should get all proceeds.

climberman

27/07/2012
9:53:30 AM

keep it at $2.99. I don't mind paying a suitable fee for something that is either useful or enjoyable or both.

I'd be interested in yer number for sales. Am thinking of another (non-climbing) similar project.

Batey

27/07/2012
10:41:42 AM

On 27/07/2012 Superstu wrote:
>On 27/07/2012 climberman wrote:
>>keep it at $2.99. I don't mind paying a suitable fee for something that
>>is either useful or enjoyable or both.
>>
>>I'd be interested in yer number for sales. Am thinking of another (non-climbing)
>>similar project.
>
>Sales for the printed edition have been so-so. I think it probably needs
>to be pushed out to the stores and distributed the traditional book sales
>way, but after a certain store threw a whole stack of them back at me I
>kinda lost interest in doing the distribution rounds.
>
>The digital edition hasn't been out that long and I haven't been out promoting
>it yet, but it will be interesting to see how it goes. I personally don't
>bother buying printed material any more, all the magazines, books, etc
>that i read are dig now.
>

I didnt have an interest in climbing that side of sydney since only a few minutes further and im in the mountains. Thats the main reason i hadn't bought a printed guide. Didn't know the ebook was there until i saw this thread. And at $3 i thought why not. Had a lok through it and now i might head out for a climb at some of the places.
By the way i also like the gesture of sending the proceeds back into climbing.

technogeekery

27/07/2012
5:21:55 PM

I've spent a fortune on guidebooks - must have 40+ from all the areas I've climbed around the world. Happy to pay for them, especially the better produced ones.

But if I'm just popping out to a local crag, I'll just print a couple of pages from the Sydney Rockies guide, or TheCrag.com. I like the idea of free online guides that allow people from all over the world to discover areas & routes - and like the collaborative and interactive aspects too. To my mind they don't really compete with the printed guides and certainly don't replace them. But online should be free, as it encourages mass participation as well as consumption. When someone has put in a lot of effort collating old information, new sources etc into an updated guide, I can understand the desire to at least cover some of the expense & time. But perhaps the crowdsourced, free, online model is a better way forward. Mountain Project is great for the USA, and TheCrag is definitely improving for Aus - so I'll continue to contribute information to those, and buy beautifully produced or otherwise interesting printed "proper" guides as well. I'll also contribute money and/or time directly to rebolting initiatives, track works, climbing clubs etc I've got no interest in paying for a PDF of online material.

rolsen1

28/07/2012
1:04:20 PM

On 26/07/2012 Superstu wrote:
>Spot poll to see if the Sutherland guidebook should be free to download.
>It's currently $2.99.
>
>I don't care about making any money, I'll buy a bag of bolts with whatever
>I end up with and hand it to mike.
>But I don't want to piss off any of the stores who are kindly selling
>the printed edition. And I don't want to set a precedent that future guidebook
>editors feel that their eBook editions have to be free, some people might
>want to put a few bucks on them. But as Simon says, the future is 0's and
>1's, so what do people think?
>I want to encourage both comprehensive guidebook writing.... and digital
>media!

I think it will end up being free for the digital stuff, just really depends on how long it will take. We're already seeing community driven guides on the climb site, we'll see more of that and it will be easier to do.

Keep charging while you can or start leading the way, its up to you.

ARidgley

31/07/2012
2:28:52 PM

Defintely charge. $2.99 is the going rate for most Kindle books. Sounds fair to me.

tastybigmac

1/08/2012
11:51:07 AM

Personally i think most of the community written guides suck. They are not inspiring and really uninteresting to read. What I like in a guidebook is to pick up a sense of the flavour of a particular crag, its history and the characters that made it this way. Without this all you have is a bunch of numbers. If ticking numbers is all that interests you, then great, but if a quality read interests you, keep hoping that people such as Superstu, Simey, Glenn Tempest, Robert McMahon & Gerry Narkowicz to name a few, keep putting in the huge amount of effort it takes to produce quality guides.

muki

1/08/2012
12:47:01 PM

you left out Joe Godding! hell be miffed.

There are 16 messages in this topic.