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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 54
Author
Self Regulation - What does it mean to you?
One Day Hero
18/07/2012
9:27:21 AM
On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>
>I still don't see the irony in there, Sol. The guy is entitled to hate
>Parks staff, as he frequently tells us, but not to encourage people to
>carry firearms to threaten them. That's just off the planet.

Hang on Kieran, wasn't your mate joking about shooting dog owners just a couple of months back? You seemed to be alright with guns in parks based humour when it was directed at folk you don't like.
One Day Hero
18/07/2012
9:37:56 AM
On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>The challenge is to have people educated enough that we don't get into
>major conflicts with Parks over these things. Self-regulation is about
>being able to show that we're actively addressing these things and these
>efforts are working.
>The question is : how we do that?

Step 1; As for all environmental issues, stop dancing around the problem of overpopulation. Any impacts from climbers are exacerbated by adding more climbers, so stop bloody trying to grow the sport! Stop modifying climbing areas to be; safer, quicker, easier for first timers to figure out. Give up making quick bucks through running intro courses for idiots who clearly aren't motivated enough to get out and learn on their own.

shortman
18/07/2012
9:46:01 AM
On 18/07/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>>
>>I still don't see the irony in there, Sol. The guy is entitled to hate
>>Parks staff, as he frequently tells us, but not to encourage people to
>>carry firearms to threaten them. That's just off the planet.
>
>Hang on Kieran, wasn't your mate joking about shooting dog owners just
>a couple of months back? You seemed to be alright with guns in parks based
>humour when it was directed at folk you don't like.

I remember that too. Kieran?
kieranl
18/07/2012
10:16:16 AM
On 18/07/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>>
>>I still don't see the irony in there, Sol. The guy is entitled to hate
>>Parks staff, as he frequently tells us, but not to encourage people to
>>carry firearms to threaten them. That's just off the planet.
>
>Hang on Kieran, wasn't your mate joking about shooting dog owners just
>a couple of months back? You seemed to be alright with guns in parks based
>humour when it was directed at folk you don't like.
Ah, the hypocrisy test.
Let's look at what Stealth/Zero actually said :
"And to rodw, if I had a gun I would have shot the dog owner, but that in itself is a breach of the National Parks Act."
If you look at the last bit of the sentence, there's the "but it's against the rules" bit. That's a modifier. It tells you it's toungue in cheek. That doesn't mean it was a smart thing to say but if I reacted to everything stupid anyone said there would be no time for anything.
Now, let's have a look at the WWS stuff :
>The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation
>and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and
>more and more. The goverment is self serving. People doing courses and
>assessments pay money and they get tax to screw you all over again. A few
>token spendings to the families, theists and property owners and they stay
>in power. Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes.

>The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation
>and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and
>more and more.
Pretty straightforward comment. No irony or satire.

>The goverment is self serving. People doing courses and
>assessments pay money and they get tax to screw you all over again.
Again comment/opinion.

>A few
>token spendings to the families, theists and property owners and they stay
>in power.
A little garbled but basically follows the same thread as the previous sentences. Again not hint of satire/irony.

> Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes.
Now this. There's no segue, link or modifier to say that, hey, now I'm joking. The context is comment. If it was a joke, it's just dumb, but the context doesn't support the joke idea. Let's just hypothesise that someone outside climbing, possibly from a parks service, happens to read this thread? How would they read it? I don't believe that it would be seen as a joke. And then to see people actually defending this, they would be thinking that we've struck a bunch of loonies.

The irony would have me laughing if I didn't feel like crying. A thread to discuss self-regulation and climbers just dive in feet-first to show that they don't have a friggin clue.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/07/2012
10:30:26 AM
ww&s wrote;
>> Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes".

On 18/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>Now this. There's no segue, link or modifier to say that, hey, now I'm
>joking. The context is comment. If it was a joke, it's just dumb, but the
>context doesn't support the joke idea. Let's just hypothesise that someone
>outside climbing, possibly from a parks service, happens to read this thread?
>How would they read it? I don't believe that it would be seen as a joke.
>And then to see people actually defending this, they would be thinking
>that we've struck a bunch of loonies.
>
>The irony would have me laughing if I didn't feel like crying. A thread
>to discuss self-regulation and climbers just dive in feet-first to show
>that they don't have a friggin clue.

You may have forgotten/left out the context that ww&s is a NSWelshman, and that NSW recently did a deal with the Shooters Party to allow hunting in NSW NP's...
~> That could change the flavour of the comment, as I'd expect NSW Rangers to be rather toey about that issue!
?


muki
18/07/2012
12:06:03 PM
rocksinmyhead is on the money, "self"regulation begins with the self, the modification of behaviour from self serving, no matter the outcome, to what will be the most beneficial behaviour to the environment, the fellow climbers, and other user groups of the parks and wilderness areas we use to enjoy our activity, will be the determining factor to wether we will be faced with an outside body determining the scope of what activities we are allowed, or forbidden to enjoy.
i feel that guide books are a way to spread this message of self regulation to the climbing masses, most climbers use a guide book until they are familiar with an area, most guide books state the local ethics about protection and climbing, some (the best ones) even talk about the environment, we should go one step further, and use the guide books to educate future climbers about the need to protect the activity we all enjoy, by deciding to abide by self regulation in simple terms that everyone can understand, in my opinion given the choice most will choose to behave in a manner that will allow for future enjoyment in this game we call climbing.
armstp
18/07/2012
2:37:11 PM
The big issue being avoided in this discussion is how do we get the commercial groups to buy into self regulation? We are talking about self regulation for real climbers when it seems that many of the problems at Victorian cliffs are caused by commercial groups. The VCC spends a lot of time and money fixing up cliffs [Summerday Valley, Youies, Werribee] that would not be anywhere near as trashed if commercial groups werenít using them [200+ people under instruction were once counted on one day at Summerday]. We can self regulate all we like it wonít stop bus loads of school kids pulling up at Summerday and Royalty Wall. And it wonít make the commercial groups clean up their own mess. Ultimately any process has to find a way of including these groups. And it should be noted that there are a lot of outdoor ed teachers, and commercial instructors who are not climbers, who do not read guide books, are people who did a course so that they can set up an abseil or a top rope in order to get a job.
Reluctant
18/07/2012
3:20:05 PM
Agreed. The carrot approach works best. It must be in their interest.
Going back to fishing industry - if you use a natural resource or crown owned area to make a buck you pay.

climbau
18/07/2012
3:27:28 PM
On 18/07/2012 Reluctant wrote:
>if you use a natural resource or crown
>owned area to make a buck you pay.
That is how it used to be in NPWS and Waverly Council in Sydney (Don't know if it still the case.) but that did not stop rogue companys doing their thing. As policing such policies is a big downfall of the plan.
uwhp510
18/07/2012
3:41:11 PM
Hey Johnny Boring Pants, I AM GOING TO SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE!

nah, just kidding ;) (boom tish)

wallwombat
18/07/2012
3:43:12 PM
On 18/07/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>ww&s wrote;
>>> Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes".
>
>On 18/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>Now this. There's no segue, link or modifier to say that, hey, now I'm
>>joking. The context is comment. If it was a joke, it's just dumb, but
>the
>>context doesn't support the joke idea. Let's just hypothesise that someone
>>outside climbing, possibly from a parks service, happens to read this
>thread?
>>How would they read it? I don't believe that it would be seen as a joke.
>>And then to see people actually defending this, they would be thinking
>>that we've struck a bunch of loonies.
>>
>>The irony would have me laughing if I didn't feel like crying. A thread
>>to discuss self-regulation and climbers just dive in feet-first to show
>>that they don't have a friggin clue.
>
>You may have forgotten/left out the context that ww&s is a NSWelshman,
>and that NSW recently did a deal with the Shooters Party to allow hunting
>in NSW NP's...
>~> That could change the flavour of the comment, as I'd expect NSW Rangers
>to be rather toey about that issue!
>?

M9 is right on the money. Guns in national parks is quite a big issue in NSW and WW&S's comments should be read in light of that.

But it's good to know that you can write just about anything here and as long as you end each comment with a raucous "BOOM BOOM!", it's OK by kieranl.

BOOM BOOM!
Reluctant
18/07/2012
4:56:53 PM
Yearly fee - light , medium , heavy use rates. Submit per use plan to on line register. Get caught and lose the permit. Reapply and with a record get pushed up to the next level. That's the stick. The carrot is access guaranteed. If this means exclusion of others during weekdays to routes they have booked so be it. As it is booked on a register you know before you go it is in use and to make other plans. Ranger does one visit at end of day. Damage, mess etc is then attributable.

Only worthwhile if money is reinvested to commercial areas. Keep traffic on a main road principle. Beginners have a place and everything else stats as is.

Those who already do the right thing are wondering why the fuss. Those who have dealt with arrogant and ignorant users of parks ( I believe that number is growing) know a code of practice that is distributd for free with your next equipment purchase MIGHT get the idea out there. Common sense is no longer so common.
If its a code of practice, non binding, and is not enforced - don't bother.
armstp
18/07/2012
5:47:11 PM
I donít think you are going to get a process run by the parks service. They had a process in place in the Gramps where commercial groups were supposed to advise them before fronting up, this was supposed to ensure that nowhere was getting too crowded or overused. No one bothered to follow it and there were insufficient parks staff to follow up. Any fee for commercial groups would have to be hefty before it was worth a rangers while to pursue it. Thatís why I thought that this might be the time to think about how you involve commercial groups in a code of practice. Not easy as there is no organised body representing them. Many schools who use and trash cliffs have their own outdoor ed teachers. How you get on to all of these many users who make a living out of using public parks for free I donít know. But their erosion, crowding, rock fall, top rope/abseil bolts will be taken into account by land owners/managers when considering the impacts and problems of having climbers on their land. They wonít differentiate betweeen commercial operations and other types of climbers. This is where a body like the VCC is needed. Because someone from the club could try to find out who the heaviest users are and at least try to get them to assist in paying for and helping to maintain the areas they trash.
Access T CliffCare
20/07/2012
11:45:16 AM
Thanks - Some great feedback and while many people are on the same page in regards to the reasoning behind self regulation, itís interesting to see the levels of process that people might like to see put in place. I think when it comes down to the very basics, it is all about common sense and trying to do collectively, what we know is the right thing to do. But the right thing to do, hmmm Ė as simple as those things appear to be, it is not always the case. There are those who generally behave like assholes with absolutely no respect for the environment they are in or anyone elses needs and respond in direct opposition to a rule or guideline in place simply because it is that. A rule or a guideline. No matter how much sense it makes. And then there are those who engage in similar activities through ignorance. I really want to believe that the majority fall into this category. And like Kieran and others have noted, education is key, I think to ensuring that the community is for the most part, successful at self regulation. Not only for ourselves to know that we are looking after our part of our world but also as others have mentioned to be seen this way by other stakeholders, and that includes other park users and land managers. If we want to be involved in what happens to the areas we climb at and love, you canít just rock up out of the wilderness, spout off about what we want, go back to our hidey holes and think that itís all going to be taken on board. In times gone by, land managers would see a problem in a climbing area, make a decision and put in restrictions or just close the area. No consultation. This hasnít happened for a long time. PV makes contact with me, whenever any issue crops up in order to get feedback, get information out to the climbing community. And this is due to the climbing community being involved and stepping up.
Getting the educational side of things out there will always be a never ending job as new climbers (and by new, not just new to the sport but new and different thinking )come into the sport/lifestyle and that is always going to be a job that takes time and money. I would like to put more time into this http://cliffcare.org.au/about/education/cliffcare-education-project/ that would hopefully go some way towards helping.
Armstp makes a really important point on commercial groups and this has been something that has been an issue swirling around in my head for a long time and no doubt previous Access officers heads. I have ideas on this and do think they need to be included in some way in our discussions because as Armstp notes, they are all grouped in together with the rest of us who climb out there when it comes to Land Managers. As individual climbers our needs and wants can be at odds with them more often than not.

Cheers,
Tracey

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There are 54 messages in this topic.

 

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