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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 54
Author
Self Regulation - What does it mean to you?
Reluctant
16/07/2012
11:11:40 AM
Wrong. Keep idiots who can't climb a hard route who then bitch about it out of this debate.

Know your enemy. It is not other climbers but those ( gov dept) that will restrict or deny access because another more organized group get heard first. The old "uncontrolled behavior" tag when thrown at a group around a natural resources/ conservation area sticks. Get in first, act as custodians rather cowboys, and be you will surprised that the world does not come to an end.
One Day Hero
16/07/2012
11:31:40 AM
On 16/07/2012 Reluctant wrote:
>
>Know your enemy. It is not other climbers but those ( gov dept) that will
>restrict or deny access because another more organized group get heard
>first.

Just look at scuba diving or hang gliding or skydiving if you want to see what happens when a bunch of power hungry c--ts are allowed to "self manage" a previously free activity. Profiteers and bizarre mini-Mussolini's take over. A culture of subservience and ratting out non-conformists to the authorities develops. Coincidently, those who set up the governing bodies as a "voluntary contribution to the community" soon begin to make money from the whole deal.
spicelab
16/07/2012
1:58:46 PM
On 15/07/2012 JamesMc wrote:
>Governments hate to regulate things

Fark! Are there no right-wingers on Chocky at all?

I've been waiting for someone to go completely ballistic over that statement.

Eduardo Slabofvic
16/07/2012
2:12:10 PM
On 16/07/2012 spicelab wrote:
>right-wingers on Chocky

Governments are only interested in remaining governments, therefore, if there is outcry, governments will act, if there is no outcry, there will be no action.

The only people who believe in conspiracy theories are people who have never worked in government.

Ring-wingers love government regulation, especially those regulations that make them more money.

Left-wingers love regulation as well, as on those rare occasions when a left wing government actually has a turn in the big house, why should they miss thier turn of sticking it to the right-wingers.

kieranl
16/07/2012
2:14:15 PM
ODH, setting aside the obscenity, which is presumably to attract attention and is disgusting, you don't want climbing to go the way of scuba, sky-diving etc.
Do you have any suggestions to avoid going down that path?
It's worth noting that the self-regulation of the climbing instruction industry seems to have worked, to this outsider at least. There are some standards for commercial climbing instructors but no restrictions on going out and teaching friends or club members.
I don't want to have to register to climb in an area or to have a certificate of incompetency before anyone will sell me climbing gear. My guess (totally unresearched and therefore with no statistical foundation) is that most other people don't want that either.
But we do lots of stuff in National Parks that are, strictly speaking, not permitted. Bolting is the high-profile issue but probably the biggest impact of climbers is track-making and vegetation clearing in popular climbing and bouldering areas. Hand-in-hand with that are potential impacts on indigenous cultural sites.
The challenge is to have people educated enough that we don't get into major conflicts with Parks over these things. Self-regulation is about being able to show that we're actively addressing these things and these efforts are working.
The question is : how we do that?
widewetandslippery
16/07/2012
5:05:47 PM
I largely agree with ODH.

The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and more and more. The goverment is self serving. People doing courses and assessments pay money and they get tax to screw you all over again. A few token spendings to the families, theists and property owners and they stay in power. Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes.

Oh, c--t is a christian word to make take marvellous hole sound dIrty.
widewetandslippery
16/07/2012
5:11:27 PM
On 16/07/2012 Reluctant wrote:
>Wrong. Keep idiots who c act as custodians
>rather cowboys, and be you will surprised that the world does not come
>to an end.

The world will end.

As a kid when everyone played cowboys and indians did you dream of being a prison gaurd or parking inspector?
kieranl
16/07/2012
5:19:42 PM
On 16/07/2012 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I largely agree with ODH.
>
>The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation
>and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and
>more and more. The goverment is self serving. People doing courses and
>assessments pay money and they get tax to screw you all over again. A few
>token spendings to the families, theists and property owners and they stay
>in power. Bring guns to NPs I say.that will keep mr ranger on his toes.
I don't see how rope access industry regulation relates to recreational climbing.
The "Bring guns to NPs" remark may be intended as humourous but it is simply dangerous. Exhorting people to carry guns to "keep Mr ranger on his toes" is lunatic stuff and bordering on criminal.
WWS you're getting into dangerous territory, tone it down.
egosan
16/07/2012
5:40:25 PM
On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:

>The "Bring guns to NPs" remark may be intended as humourous but it is
>simply dangerous. Exhorting people to carry guns to "keep Mr ranger on
>his toes" is lunatic stuff and bordering on criminal.
>WWS you're getting into dangerous territory, tone it down.

Meh, looks like valid and protected speech where I come from. Irony isn't lunatic nor criminal.

rodw
16/07/2012
6:48:17 PM
On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:

>I don't see how rope access industry regulation relates to recreational
>climbing.

The topic is "Self Regulation - What does it mean to you?", so he provided an example of how self regulation can get distorted to serve self interest. I do not see how you don't see how that example doesn't relate to the topic at hand.

kieranl
16/07/2012
7:37:19 PM
On 16/07/2012 rodw wrote:
>On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>
>>I don't see how rope access industry regulation relates to recreational
>>climbing.
>
>The topic is "Self Regulation - What does it mean to you?", so he provided
>an example of how self regulation can get distorted to serve self interest.
>I do not see how you don't see how that example doesn't relate to the topic
>at hand.
>
>
Actually he didn't give an example, just an opinion. ODHs examples of scuba and skydiving regulation would seem to be more applicable to climbing.
kieranl
16/07/2012
7:40:19 PM
On 16/07/2012 egosan wrote:

>Meh, looks like valid and protected speech where I come from. Irony isn't
>lunatic nor criminal.
>
I still don't see the irony in there, Sol. The guy is entitled to hate Parks staff, as he frequently tells us, but not to encourage people to carry firearms to threaten them. That's just off the planet.

rodw
16/07/2012
8:36:51 PM
On 16/07/2012 widewetandslippery wrote:

>The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation
>and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and
>more and more.

Sounds like an example to me.
kieranl
16/07/2012
8:45:32 PM
On 16/07/2012 rodw wrote:
>On 16/07/2012 widewetandslippery wrote:
>
>>The rope access industry in australia got on its feet through self regulation
>>and is now self regulated by instruction companies who charge more and
>>more and more.
>
>Sounds like an example to me.
Whatever. Any somewhat dodgy cred the guy had has been totally shot with me. It just stumps me that other people aren't apalled the stuff he has come up with.
widewetandslippery
16/07/2012
9:38:27 PM
popcorn has more antioxidants than fruit

JamesMc
16/07/2012
10:30:17 PM
On 16/07/2012 kieranl wrote:
>It just stumps me that other people aren't apalled the stuff he has
>come up with.

Perhaps you'r the only one still reading him Kieran.




wallwombat
16/07/2012
10:56:40 PM
On 16/07/2012 JamesMc wrote:
>Perhaps you'r the only one still reading him Kieran.

I'd prefer the odd Lenny Bruce, blahing obcenities, than an army of yawny bumsters, blahing boring bullshit.

Rocksinmyhead
16/07/2012
11:52:27 PM
Warning wws - No references to firearms in the following comments.... may contain boring bullshit

Hi Tracy,

self regulation means a bit (and sometimes a bit more) of thinking about what you do before you do it, with the thinking being about what the impacts will be, and modifying behavior as a result. I reckon it's worked well for climbing in Australia - it's mostly unregulated and despite Reluctant's fears may continue to be so for a while to come. I think it's the case because the combined impact of all this "unregulated" behaviour, from bottom feeders like myself to crag developers is mostly below the threshold of alarm of any authority, e.g. Not enough to worry about.

Self regulation works when most people are aware, at some level, that increasing regulation WILL be imposed if their impact is too great. Burying your turds,keeping groups small, carrying out track care, climbing logs to avoid vegetation, not taking your dog to a NP are all examples of how climbers mitigate their impact on the environment. Others can see this and hopefully think we're doing enough. We're lucky in that our favorite medium, rock, is pretty tough.

Self regulation does not necessarily mean consensus - we can argue about the subtilties of bolting forever, but works well when it involves respect of others efforts - e.g. Be it by not retrobolting passport to insanity or top roping thru the rings.

Lastly, self regulation involves not hurting yourself so badly you need others help, especially expensive rescues. Fortunately, I've found climbing scares me more often than hurts me.

Hope that helps.

Involvement of a "community"', representative body or government is external regulation - you have to obey other rules than your own. Climbers still have to do this when engaged in related outdoor activities like camping or four wheel driving.
Reluctant
17/07/2012
10:07:52 AM
I sold guns to both sides.

Climboholic
17/07/2012
1:11:04 PM
On 16/07/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Self regulation means all the softc--k useless climbers banding together
>into a "representative majority", then using the spectre of external regulation
>as justification for dumbing cool routes down to a level where they can
>actually climb them.
>

Far-kin-ay!

I probably fit into the category of "softc--k useless climber", but I still want the right to go out there and scare myself sh1tless on "cool routes".

Self regulation means do what we collectively say or we'll lynch you with aid hammers!

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 54
There are 54 messages in this topic.

 

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