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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 54
Author
Self Regulation - What does it mean to you?
Access T CliffCare
13/07/2012
11:47:42 AM
Hi All,

I'm looking at writing an article on this and while I have an idea of what it means to me both personally and from the perspective of my job as an Access officer, it would be great to hear from people as to what it means to them. So far, across my time in this job, it varies greatly from person to person. This, I suppose is natural, but it also might be helpful for future community building to get a better picture of what people really think and if need be, work on some of the elements that can strengthen these bonds rather than divide.

Cheers,
Tracey

Eduardo Slabofvic
13/07/2012
1:44:18 PM
Unilateralism

climbau
13/07/2012
1:48:45 PM
Self Regulation to me is coming together as a community to decide what is acceptable practice. Sounds pretty simple, but there are so many facets that the cynic in me feels that it is an impossible pipedream.
I think most climbers climb partly due to there not being a controlling body to tell them how they should behave, bolt, develop new areas, etc..... The idea of self regulation is a simple idea when there is a small community, but as the community grows, new ideas and opinions and issues arise.
I feel that any self-regulation needs first to be formalised on a local level, then the principles can be merged with neighbouring communities. Is this too much work for a volunteer position? And would a volunteer really be able to perform the role of coordinator and convener to the level required to make such a project successful? Yes. Should we expect the regulation to be co-ordinated by regional volunteers? possibly not.
A list of decisions to be made could look something like this-
bolting policy, including the types of bolts to be used in defined situations - New Routes
rebolting/maintenance policy, sames as above for existing routes.
environmental policies for the development of new areas and routes including visual impact, physical impact, taxonomical impact, financial impact.
environmental maintenance policy for climbing areas.
Guidebook standardisation for local and foreign communities.
Emergency response policies.
Personal safety policy.
insurance policies.
competency policies.
If we want to be treated with the same respect as the local football code then we need to show the official agencies that provide funding or space within their policies to allow climbing to grow/exist then we need to produce a top notch document addressing these issues. Any thing less than a professional release will jeopardise the legitimacy of climbing in the eyes of the wider non climbing community.

The UIAA website has some great documents relating to standardising guidebooks and bolting. A good place to start perhaps.

I would like to see the development of climbing to reach the same point as where Europe is. There is wide community acceptance, it is a family oriented activity, there is funding available for the development of new areas and council groups are happy to be involved. What I see in Australia is a fragmented bunch of folks with widely differing opinions that most climbers cannot be bothered with. The clubs only see a small part of the climbing community, forums such as chockstone have even less impact on the wider climbing community and the developmental organisations seem to be aving no success in legitimising climbing within the sporting community let alone the non climbing community. I think there needs to be a fundamental attitude shift to make self-regulation a reality.

I hope my random thoughts make sense to you Tracey. :)
Olbert
13/07/2012
2:08:46 PM
I reckon there are a few levels to self regulation, and a two different groups within the 'climbing' fraternity. There are the 'bottom feeders' who go to crags and do routes from the guidebook and trust the judgement of the 'establishers'. The 'establishers' go to crags and put up new routes (bolted, unbolted and mixed), write descriptions, give grades, as well as rebolting/retrobolting old routes, organising crag clean up days, dealing with authorities and the like.

Self regulation has a few meanings that apply to the bottom feeders, a few meanings to the establishers and a few that apply across both groups.

Meaning to both groups:
- Don't be a dick. By that I mean, don't leave the crag in a worse state than when you found it and if you can leave it in a better place.

Meaning to bottom feeders:
- Trust in the work of the establishers: if an establisher deemed it trustworthy then it is trustworthy.
- Except in special circumstances it is not the fault of establishers in the case of an incident. No outside action should be taken against an establisher.

Meaning to Establishers:
- The work you do will be relied upon people less competent than yourself - make sure you do it right!
- If you see another establisher doing the wrong/incompetent thing it is your and others responsibility to see they and their work are corrected.

At no point are outside authorities needed for regulation in any way.

kuu
Online Now
13/07/2012
2:40:35 PM
On 13/07/2012 Olbert wrote:
>
>At no point are outside authorities needed for regulation in any way.

Ideally that's true, but try telling them that!

For many years Gordon Brysland tried to advise authorities to avoid any attempt to regulate, or interfere in, climbing activities or else risk heightening their Duty of Care responsibilities (with the potential of increasing their exposure to litigation).

I've not noted any significant decrease in the propensity of National Parks organisations and local Councils to heed those warnings.

Mike Bee
13/07/2012
3:16:43 PM
On 13/07/2012 climbau wrote:
>I would like to see the development of climbing to reach the same point
>as where Europe is. There is wide community acceptance, it is a family
>oriented activity, there is funding available for the development of new
>areas and council groups are happy to be involved.

I know what you mean by this, but it must be stressed that there are some aspects of the euro climbing scene that we don't need over here such as the overcrowding, and excessive bolting. However, your point about a more cohesive and unified climbing community that is seen as representitve and legitimate by other stake holders (NPWS, councils etc) would be a great development.
kieranl
13/07/2012
9:45:57 PM
Self regulation requires a certain level of community cohesion to do two things, minimise both the proportion of the community who exhibit outlier behaviour and the extremity of the outlier behaviour. It's really about having a generally accepted culture, not necessarily prescriptive, as a significant number of people will actively resist and deliberately undermine it.
I don't think there's anything paricularly special about climbers as a community. We may have a slightly higher proportion of people who are out on the edge than other groups, but the interpersonal dynamics are pretty standard. Arguments about bolting etc are not particularly more intense than intercraft disputes among musicians or patchwork quilters.
The key to self regulation is probably education, dialogue and argument. If the community is engaged everyone at least knows what the issues are and what others think about them. I guess this means talks, arguments in the cafe, articles, self-righteous letters to the editor and posts on Chocky.
I'm not talking about developing a sense of community - I think climbers are too fragmented for that. I think it can only be done by the hard slog of keeping talking.



climbau
13/07/2012
9:55:54 PM
The fragmentation of the climbing community is probably the biggest hurdle. Most climbers I know do not inhabit climbing forums or belong to a club. They will read a climbing magazine if a particular article takes their fancy. They may have contact with a gear shop, but mostly just buy through mail/online/phone ordering systems. How do we reach and include those sorts of folks.I suppose in a way, they just don't want to be a par of the politics of a community?

wallwombat
14/07/2012
10:22:04 PM
To tell you the truth, your "random thoughts" makes me want to give up climbing.

But it's not just you.





...and I'm not pissed - I'm using quotation marks.
widewetandslippery
15/07/2012
5:31:05 AM
Fibagel

climbau
15/07/2012
9:55:16 AM
On 14/07/2012 wallwombat wrote:
>To tell you the truth, your "random thoughts" makes me want to give up
>climbing.
Me too. Might as well just take up gardening.
Reluctant
15/07/2012
5:46:01 PM
I have dealt with this issue in both sport and industry. The issue is not if a body should but when to produce a "Code of practice" for self reg. The time and purpose of self reg and a code of practice is to set the tone of the debate, restrictions, conditions, etc in your favour.
There will be those who beat their chest and talk down any talk of an authority over their activities. That is the take my ball and go home response. I put forward the idea of take the high ground by imposing "some" restrictions via a code of practice before the knee jerk reaction of government bodies creates so many hoops to jump through it has the end effect of a "closed season" that does not seem to lift.
I often find the bolting argument interesting for a side on reason. The discussion covers the install, removal, replacement, etc. on rock faces that are predominately on crown land. Many in national parks.Has anyone ever surveyed the wider community how they think of this activity? A quick straw poll by me found disbelief. Four wheel drivers are having areas closed, campers cant touch firewood or camp in open park (approved grounds only), bushwalkers are being restricted to trails or boardwalks - while climbers take battery drills and grinders at will and without agreement amongst themselves.
There will be losers with implementation of a code. But the gains can be considerable. Best case I can find to compare would be the fishing industry in port Phillip bay. Recreational fishing lobby joined with conservationists to set a license system for fishing in Victoria. They took that pain so they could fund the study and compensation package to get scollop dredging pushed out of the bay. Bay recovered, fish stocks increased, fisheries dept got boats to enforce bag limit. Looking back it all makes common sense and yet at the time it was the end of the world to "pay to fish". The fresh water fisherman had always had a license system and so the equity card got played. I don't know of many recreational fishers who belong to clubs. The retailers and wholesalers of fishing equipment were and still are the drivers of the recreational fishing lobby. As a boy I lived near the old Jarvis Walker factory in Deepdeen. It was small and supplied maybe 6 specialty fishing stores in Melbourne. Now there is one in every second suburb. Those with a financial interest must take the lead in producing a code and then lobbying for implementation and the associated resources.
I'm not advocating a climbing licence. I would however suggest a register (online) of use for all areas. This would provide data of use etc, that could be used to show code of practice in action, size of community, rates of use, peak times, etc in order to get funding, change in park management, facilities updated/maintained. This might also include bolting plans or specific code of practice per site details.
An organised community gets funding and other resources. Also retains access when another community tries to get you banned. Sport, trad, bolts, no bolts, novice or expert all means nothing if you don't have access.
Set the terms, take some pain, set a code, keep the access. The sport is growing and controls, while not desired, are required.


JamesMc
15/07/2012
6:39:48 PM
Governments hate to regulate things, because it takes lots of money and effort, and upsets voters. Self regulation is a way of giving government an excuse to not regulate -by showing that most of the benefit can be obtained without the cost and effort.

JamesMc

Eduardo Slabofvic
15/07/2012
8:45:09 PM
Will I need to get a license to go the beach for a swim?

rodw
15/07/2012
9:12:25 PM
On 14/07/2012 wallwombat wrote:
>To tell you the truth, your "random thoughts" makes me want to give up
>climbing.

I thought you did that already by default by moving to your little country town with 28 thousand pubs and no climbable cliffs within a days drive.

wallwombat
15/07/2012
9:47:24 PM
On 15/07/2012 rodw wrote:

>I thought you did that already by default by moving to your little country
>town with 28 thousand pubs and no climbable cliffs within a days drive.

I'd been mucking around at Wingello for over a decade before I said anything to you, Bundy and Hawkeman.

I tried to tell ODH about the place but he couldn't get time off kindy at the time.

And Rod, there is heaps of climbable rock out here Same as always, I don't tell anyone.

Back to the topic, To me, "self regulation'', in climbing, means exactly the same to me as it does in every other aspect of life.

Self Regulation = Don't be a f---wit and try to let people have the closest possible experience to the one you had and still go home safely.

.....and always bury your poo.
Kieranl
15/07/2012
9:56:09 PM
On 15/07/2012 wallwombat wrote:
>On 15/07/2012 rodw wrote:
>
>Self Regulation = Don't be a f---wit and try to let people have the closest
>possible experience to the one you had and still go home safely.
>
>.....and always bury your poo.
That's not a bad start.

JamesMc
16/07/2012
6:47:18 AM
On 15/07/2012 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>Will I need to get a license to go the beach for a swim?

It's the opposite of needing a license to go to the beach for a swim. You need a license to drive a car because driving is regulated by government.

JamesMc

rodw
16/07/2012
9:24:26 AM
On 15/07/2012 wallwombat wrote:

>And Rod, there is heaps of climbable rock out here Same as always, I don't
>tell anyone.

To true WWS cant stop raving about the place :)
One Day Hero
16/07/2012
10:24:57 AM
Self regulation means all the softc--k useless climbers banding together into a "representative majority", then using the spectre of external regulation as justification for dumbing cool routes down to a level where they can actually climb them.

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There are 54 messages in this topic.

 

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