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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Yes 22
69% 
No 10
31% 

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 66
Author
Retrobolting at Bungonia

rodw
27/06/2012
10:53:57 AM
Interesting side question...can you actually retro your own routes...at what point in time does a FA lose the "right" to add bolts to "finish" the project they originally envisioned?

nmonteith
27/06/2012
11:04:35 AM
On 27/06/2012 rodw wrote:
>Interesting side question...can you actually retro your own routes...

For sure! This has been happening all over the place in recent years.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/06/2012
11:07:40 AM
On 27/06/2012 rodw wrote:
>Interesting side question...can you actually retro your own routes...at
>what point in time does a FA lose the "right" to add bolts to "finish"
>the project they originally envisioned?

I doubt anyone can put a sensible timeframe on that due to the many variables involved, but I would suggest that if the climb achieves sufficient popularity (dare I say classic?) status in its present form (regardless of any danger it may entail), then it would be sacrilege to retro it, even by the original ascentionist/s.
dmcg
27/06/2012
11:26:05 AM
On 22/06/2012 widewetandslippery wrote:
>Fants is liberal minded to bolting but imagine the newspaper headline of
>him beating the retrobolter of jewlbox to death with the perfect hammer


Jewel box probably wouldnít have come into existence sans bolts without fants beating IT to death with the perfect Bungonia hammer (hold trimming head on one end, crack cleaning/nut setting pick on the other) in the first place. More than one subsequent ascent by others sans hammer resulted in serious ground falls (and subsequent rescues/carry outs) when weighted gear pulled from glass smooth placements high on the first pitch.

I have a homemade perfect Bungonia hammer if anyone wants to borrow it?! Ė blow the rust and cobwebs off and it still might work okay (unlike its owner).

PS Iím not bagging fantsí use of the hammer at the time, jewel box was a pretty extraordinary ground up, onsight effort (as were just about all his climbs) but it begged the question Ė did subsequent ascensionists have to carry a hammer to set crucial nuts on his climbs? My memory is pretty shot but I know john did the odd bit of retrobolting on a few of his own Bungonia routes, canít remember if he ever added a bolt to any part of JB or not.


rodw
27/06/2012
11:31:40 AM
That I don't think that covers it either M9, Bunny Buckets buttress was "updated" by FA and that route is certainly a classic...purely for danger factor and that didn't really even get a ripple of controversy.....I think it would be hard for any new router to be asked to sit on their hands when they think a route they created was suspect in safety unintentionally, to not tinker with it...and I certainly wouldn't call it sacrilege for them to do so, considering the stakes involved. I'm not talking about intentionally if they create a heady/dangerous route on purpose thats a different issue.

Im also mostly talking about sport climbing..trad I think is different as you are taking what nature has thrown at you only and it has not been modified by th FAer in any true form.


jono_1
27/06/2012
11:40:40 AM
On 27/06/2012 dmcg wrote:
>On 22/06/2012 widewetandslippery wrote:
>>Fants is liberal minded to bolting but imagine the newspaper headline
>of
>>him beating the retrobolter of jewlbox to death with the perfect hammer
>
>
>Jewel box probably wouldnít have come into existence sans bolts without
>fants beating IT to death with the perfect Bungonia hammer (hold trimming
>head on one end, crack cleaning/nut setting pick on the other) in the first
>place. More than one subsequent ascent by others sans hammer resulted in
>serious ground falls (and subsequent rescues/carry outs) when weighted
>gear pulled from glass smooth placements high on the first pitch.
>
>I have a homemade perfect Bungonia hammer if anyone wants to borrow it?!
>Ė blow the rust and cobwebs off and it still might work okay (unlike its
>owner).
>
>PS Iím not bagging fantsí use of the hammer at the time, jewel box was
>a pretty extraordinary ground up, onsight effort (as were just about all
>his climbs) but it begged the question Ė did subsequent ascensionists have
>to carry a hammer to set crucial nuts on his climbs? My memory is pretty
>shot but I know john did the odd bit of retrobolting on a few of his own
>Bungonia routes, canít remember if he ever added a bolt to any part of
>JB or not.
>
>

Pretty sure that after the first ascent of Wailing Coooockatoos Fantini went back and added a few bolts to avoid a ground fall from 30 m up. Would not have been that difficult to retrobolt considering the climb ends at the end of the second traverse pitch of strangeness and charm.

Apparently c--k is offensive to some people on this site hence the cooock.

In general most of the early routes at Bungonia were put up onsight, no inspection with no regard for the safety of repeat ascensionists. You could probably go and retrobolt the crap out of these routes and no one would know.

I have one of Fantini's Bungonia hammer if anyone wants to give Jewel Box a crack!
Estey
27/06/2012
12:00:41 PM
I'd be a bit careful of any systemic retro of Bungonia. Its a magic place to climb. However I don't think its in the interests of the climbing community to have a big increase in traffic down there. If keeping the older "easier" routes in their original state reduces numbers and keeps our pofile low, I say that is a good thing.







wallwombat
27/06/2012
12:36:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Mike Law-Smith guide recommended taking a hammer on the older, more traditional climbs (Jewel Box, Reason for Man, etc).
One Day Hero
27/06/2012
2:30:50 PM
As M9 has been pointing out, I didn't put these polls up to work out what should be retrobolted. I put them up to show Neil that democracy isn't served by having a referendum on every separate issue. That method leads to the systematic exclusion of those whose views don't mesh with the majority.

That doesn't mean that the results of these polls are junk though. I find the Araps and Bungonia ones pretty interesting.

Araps received a decisive vote for "take your drill and shove it" (hope you picked up on that Kieran and the NBF). Seems that a lot of folk on chocky have gotten attached to the crag in its current state.

Bungers, on the other hand, had 18 people voting for retrobolting. Clearly some of them voted that way just to piss me off, however I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of serious votes in there. For those who voted to retro, can I ask how many have actually a) been down for a look? and, b) at least roped up and pulled off the ground?

So, Bungers retro-voters, can you tell us what's going on? I'm curious.

climbau
27/06/2012
2:32:54 PM
An interesting read for those interested.

http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/to_bolt_or_not_to_be_en.pdf
tor.lattimore
27/06/2012
2:41:41 PM
Or perhaps you asked the wrong question. In the araps thread you asked if people thought there should be more bolts. In this one you asked if Bungonia would be more popular if there were.

If I could be bothered voting I'd say more people would go to Bungonia if there were bolts every 2m, but that it still shouldn't be bolted that way.
One Day Hero
27/06/2012
2:47:40 PM
:D Yep, that was the other half of my little protest against Neil's methods. Asking loaded questions is such a Daily Telegraph tactic.

I reckon the results of the Booroomba poll aren't "don't add bolts". Instead, people are voting "even if you lace that crag with metal I won't go there, because I fuking hate slab climbing"
anthonycuskelly
27/06/2012
3:02:02 PM
I ignored the loadedness. Have I been there? No. Should it be retroed? No. No-one's forcing anyone to climb there, if you don't like it... exercise your free will and go somewhere else (hence why I'm never found on runout slabs).
PDRM
27/06/2012
4:00:56 PM
Thinking about Bungonia and bolts and climbers. The other big draw there is caves - I wonder do cavers go through similar paroxysms of debate around bolts down caves, or is this peculiar to above ground denizens?

P

nmonteith
27/06/2012
4:28:09 PM
I did a cave there a few months ago that had several shiny new ringbolts in it - some of them in strange places - like halfway down a shaft you abseil down?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/06/2012
4:41:14 PM
On 27/06/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>I did a cave there a few months ago that had several shiny new ringbolts
>in it - some of them in strange places - like halfway down a shaft you
>abseil down?

If the bastards have retro'd B22 then I will personally chop them.
PDRM
27/06/2012
4:42:56 PM
On 27/06/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 27/06/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>I did a cave there a few months ago that had several shiny new ringbolts
>>in it - some of them in strange places - like halfway down a shaft you
>>abseil down?
>
>If the bastards have retro'd B22 then I will personally chop them.

Very funny, and my point exactly.

P

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/06/2012
4:44:53 PM
On 27/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>(snip)
>Araps received a decisive vote for "take your drill and shove it" (snip)
>
>Bungers, on the other hand, had 18 people voting for retrobolting. Clearly
>some of them voted that way just to piss me off, however I'm pretty sure
>that there's a lot of serious votes in there. (snip)

No they didn't.

As Tor pointed out, and your original post says...
>Would more people go there if it had ringbolts every 2.5m

~> Yes it is a loaded question, and I know that you know, that you didn't need a poll to tell you the answer!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/06/2012
4:48:45 PM
>On 27/06/2012 PDRM wrote:
>Thinking about Bungonia and bolts and climbers. The other big draw there is caves - I wonder do cavers go through similar paroxysms of debate around bolts down caves, or is this peculiar to above ground denizens?

>>On 27/06/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>>I did a cave there a few months ago that had several shiny new ringbolts
>>>in it - some of them in strange places - like halfway down a shaft you
>>>abseil down?
>>
>On 27/06/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>If the bastards have retro'd B22 then I will personally chop them.
>
On 27/06/2012 PDRM wrote:
>Very funny, and my point exactly.
>
>P

... and what is your stance on that issue?
PDRM
27/06/2012
5:14:10 PM
Bolting caves? Not sure it arouses the passion of cavers the way it does climbers. Probably because doesn't change the 'doability' of a cave and hence the grading the way it does with climbs. You also don't have the same sport vs trad cave issue (which sounds weird when you swap those words). Bolts in caves? Guess they can be over-bolted but would we end up with chopping and bolt wars, probably not?

Have done caves for my own jollies, guided them and instructed in cave rescue: as with climbing vs guiding vs rescue/IRA, all different contexts.

PaulM

Edit: I guess could change difficulty but stand by the comments

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 66
There are 66 messages in this topic.

 

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