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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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8:48:22 PM |
On 20/06/2012 gfdonc wrote: >On 20/06/2012 simey wrote: > >>I don't think it is such a fair bet if the only thing I can win is a >single >>phone number written down on a scrap of paper. > >Paper? I thought he was referring to the wall of the Nati public toilets? > I figured simey already had those along with the Araps and Horsham ones in his book, but reckoned itd be worth a laff to read any others that may be there. |
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1:16:53 AM |
Enough of Stugang's stupid nonsense. Now that I am at a proper keyboard I can write a more detailed reply to the rest of you hacks, particularly Damo for his dumbarse comments... On 19/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >On 19/06/2012 simey wrote: >> >>To be talking about breaking 2 hours up the Nose is the equivalent of >>breaking 8 secs for 100m. And I would argue that Alex Honnold is the >Usain Bolt of this generation when it comes to speed climbing and soloing big >>walls. I will happily take bets with anyone that no one will break 2 >hours for the Nose in the next 20 years. > >Bullshit simey! Could you come up with a dumber comparison? There have >been millions of people who have lined up over a couple of thousand years >to try and be the fastest sprinter. Trained their arses off, competed, >and gotten a result of some sort. Even if they never get amazingly good, >they are all putting their hat in the ring to be the fastest sprinter around. > >How many different people have had a genuine go at cranking fast up the >Nose? 30? 50? It must be close to the most specialised competitive event >there is. You pretty much need to live in Yosemite for a couple of years, >do the route at least a dozen times, memorize every hold and every placement, >before you'd even think about having a shot. And out of this tiny gene >pool of people, you've identified the Usain Bolt of Nose climbing? Care >to tell me who is the Usain Bolt of regional victorian footy? How about >the Usain Bolt of lawn bowls? Usually you bring some commonsense to Chockstone Damo, but this time you are spouting pure horse shit. I refer to Alex Honnold as the Usain Bolt of speed climbing and soloing big walls and you come up with some weird notion that Alex Honnold can't be compared to Usain Bolt simply because more people have competed in the 100m event throughout history than have climbed the Nose. The fact that you ran 100m at primary school in your little sports uniform isn't making Usain Bolt's record appear any better in my book. Meanwhile Honnold's mindblowing achievement of climbing 'the Triple' of Half Dome, El Cap and Watkins completely solo in a time under 19 hours hasn't lost any of its impact simply because no other climber had tried it previously! As for the rest of you experts who sit at your keyboards and proclaim that 2 hours for the Nose will be broken in the next few years, I would like to point out the World Long Jump record. Since 1901, the Men's world long jump record has on four occasions stood for over 20 years. The most recent examples were Bob Beamon's jump of 8.9m in 1968 which stood for 23 years until 1991 when it was broken with the current record of 8.95m which still stands today, 21 years later. That means in 44 years there has only been a 6cm gain in the world long jump record - an improvement of just 1.66%. Yet many of you clowns reckon the Nose record will be slashed by another 24 mins (an improvement of 16.5%) in just a few years! Below is a list of record holders. Look at those names. There aren't too many mugs amongst them. What is interesting is that Ueli Steck and Alex Honnold teamed up to do the Nose recently and although they did some fast ascents, they still didn't give the record a shake. The team of Florine and Honnold combines experience and talent and I am guessing their new record will take some beating, yet alone the 2 hour mark. Does anyone else want to bet otherwise? THE NOSE - RECORD HOLDERS 6/17/2012 Hans Florine, Alex Honnold 2:23:51[13] 11/6/2010 Dean Potter, Sean Leary 2:36:45[14] 10/12/2008 Hans Florine, Yuji Hirayama 2:37:05[15] 7/2/2008 Hans Florine, Yuji Hirayama 2:43:33[16] 10/8/2007 Alexander and Thomas Huber 2:45:45 10/4/2007 Alexander and Thomas Huber 2:48:30[17] 9/29/2002 Hans Florine, Yuji Hirayama 2:48:55[18] 11/2001 Dean Potter, Timmy O'Neill 3:24:20 10/2001 Hans Florine, Jim Herson 3:57:27 10/2001 Dean Potter, Timmy O'Neill 3:59:35[19] 1992 Hans Florine, Peter Croft 4:22 1991 Peter Croft, Dave Schultz 4:48 1991 Hans Florine, Andres Puhvel 6:01 1990 Peter Croft, Dave Schultz 6:40 1990 Hans Florine, Steve Schneider 8:06 1986 John Bachar, Peter Croft 10:05[20] 1975 Jim Bridwell, John Long, Bill Westbay 17:45 |
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6:58:43 AM |
I love it when u get all 'This is how it is' Simon. No wonder the ladies are lining up. |
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9:09:02 AM |
On 21/06/2012 simey wrote: >Enough of Stugang's stupid nonsense. Now that I am at a proper keyboard >I can write a more detailed reply to the rest of you hacks, particularly >Damo for his dumbarse comments... >As for the rest of you experts who sit at your keyboards and proclaim >that 2 hours for the Nose will be broken in the next few years, I would >like to point out the World Long Jump record. > >Since 1901, the Men's world long jump record has on four occasions stood >for over 20 years. The most recent examples were Bob Beamon's jump of 8.9m >in 1968 which stood for 23 years until 1991 when it was broken with the >current record of 8.95m which still stands today, 21 years later. > >That means in 44 years there has only been a 6cm gain in the world long >jump record - an improvement of just 1.66%. Yet many of you clowns reckon >the Nose record will be slashed by another 24 mins (an improvement of 16.5%) >in just a few years! ... Wow, someone backing an argument up with facts. I was almost expecting a reference list. The analogy with the long jump record would be really good except that it doesn't stack up. While the long jump record is broken rarely and ,except for Beaman's which increased the record by 55cm (6.5%), by only small amounts, The Nose record is broken regularly. Florine has knocked 20 minutes off it in the past 4 years, though only 5 minutes was knocked off in the previous 6. So, another 23 minute improvement? You would have to say it's possible, though I wouldn't like to bet on probable. That time will probably come from micro-analysis and refinement of choke points. There probably has to be some arbitrary rule such as "team must be roped together and have at least one point of attachment at any time". |
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9:32:09 AM |
On 21/06/2012 kieranl wrote: >The analogy with the long jump record would be really good except that >it doesn't stack up. While the long jump record is broken rarely and ,except >for Beaman's which increased the record by 55cm (6.5%), by only small amounts, >The Nose record is broken regularly. What doesn't stack up? My point is that in long jump - an event in which the numerous competitors can practise and compete around the globe has had long lasting records. If someone sets an outstanding time in something, then it takes some beating. Even the Croft and Florine time of 4:22 for the Nose set in 1992 lasted 9 years. What makes people think that the Nose record will be slashed by such a huge amount of time in the near future? Who in the climbing world even comes close to what Honnold has been climbing recently in regard to big wall speed ascents? |
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9:39:18 AM |
On 21/06/2012 simey wrote: >What doesn't stack up? Someone sets as outstanding time in something and >it lasts for a long time. Even the Croft and Florine time of 4:22 set in >1992 lasted 9 years. > Your benchmark was this : >Since 1901, the Men's world long jump record has on four occasions stood >for over 20 years None of the Nose records have yet to stand for over 20 years. Last time I looked, 9 years was significantly shorter than 20. *post-edit* And the longest gap was 11 - still well short of 20. |
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9:41:29 AM |
On 21/06/2012 kieranl wrote: >There probably has to be some arbitrary rule such as "team must be roped >together and have at least one point of attachment at any time". Why? As we have discussed above, there is a trade off between speed and safety. Less safety does not necessarily equal greater speed. |
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9:47:55 AM |
On 21/06/2012 cruze wrote: >On 21/06/2012 kieranl wrote: >>There probably has to be some arbitrary rule such as "team must be roped >>together and have at least one point of attachment at any time". > >Why? As we have discussed above, there is a trade off between speed and >safety. Less safety does not necessarily equal greater speed. Because I'm a nerd, I like being able to compare like-with-like. At another level, an obvious way to shave some seconds is for a team to decide that they are comfortable to simul-solo some sections with the rope on. |
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9:58:59 AM |
I think we need a statistical analysis and a graph of the records. See if they're starting to level off to a minimum or if they're continuing a downward curve. | |||||
10:11:41 AM |
On 21/06/2012 simey wrote: >What makes people think that the Nose record will be slashed by such a >huge amount of time in the near future? Because they just slashed 13 minutes off the previous fastest time! Surely it is conceivable that you could repeat that performance gain. I haven't read anywhere that Honnold&Hans said they were climbing as fast as they could conceivably do it. If those two climbers focused their energy and JUST trained specifically to speed solo the Nose then I'm sure they could knock it off. By training, I mean Olympic kind of dedication - every single day for 4 years devoted to the one aim of breaking the 2 hour barrier. No drinking, recreational drugs, partying or other kinds of climbing that isn't advatanges to doing the Nose. Coaches, money, nutrition, performance enhancing drugs, sports massage. There are so many ways you could refine their performance. Practice practice practice every day. >Who in the climbing world even >comes close to what Honnold has been climbing recently in regard to big >wall speed ascents? But before Honnold arrived on the scene you probably couldn't imagine there would EVER be someone like him. Who knows who will appear on the scene in the next few years? Constant improvement happens every year by the next generation. |
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11:44:07 AM |
Are you taking the piss Neil, or are you serious with all that motivational dribble? Firstly, I have no doubt Honnold&Hans were climbing as fast they conceivably could. Why the hell wouldn't they?! More to the point, I haven't read anywhere where they said they lost time (ie, dropped/stuck gear, overtaking other parties). I get the impression this was as close to the perfect ascent as they are likely to get. As for all your bollocks about Olympic dedication and training. What do you think these guys have been doing the last few months? I'm pretty sure they weren't sitting on their arses smoking bongs all the time. And even if they did enjoy a toke, well that doesn't seem to have stopped Michael Phelps from winning more Olympic gold medals than anyone. As for your advice of 'Practice practice practice every day'. Well you better tell Honnold to up his game as his all-free ascent of the Triple in recent weeks with Caldwell, followed by his solo ascent the Triple shortly after, not to mention his numerous other ascents of the Nose, along with a bunch of out-there solos, obviously aren't cutting the mustard in your book. Of course true Olympic style dedication would no doubt break the two-hour barrier in no time at all - that is why all the sports science and specialised training developed over the last twenty years has had such an impact in breaking the world long jump record, or breaking two hours for the marathon. The only thing you said that I agree with is... " before Honnold arrived on the scene you probably couldn't imagine there would EVER be someone like him". You are correct. Honnold is a freak and the first climber to truly up the ante set by Peter Croft 20 years ago. I suspect we won't see another climber like him for at least another 20 years, which by then I will be enjoying my free beers courtesy of Singer. |
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11:51:11 AM |
I think Ueli Steck training for the North Face of the Eiger and soloing Shishapangma is an indicating of the type of achievements that are possible if Olympic style training is applied to outdoor pursuits. I am with ODH, dedicated athletes from the old Eastern Bloc countries could be wiping the floor with alot of so-called professional athletes. | |||||
11:59:19 AM |
I just honestly don't believe they have reached the limit. I'm unsure why you think THIS SPECIFIC ascent is the pinnacle of all that will ever be? Why this one and not the last one? What grounds have you that this is the fastest they will ever do it? Speed climbing isn't liek running a marathon where its all about just putting one foot in front of another and keeping yourself cool and hydrated. There are so many intricate bits of technicality to get right all the way that combined produce the end result. To get it to his best of ability would require hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of attempts. Just watching that video of Honnold sketching on the slabby section of Watkins where he was balking back and forth for quite a few seconds shows he isn't moving as fast as he can all the time. If he had that one section absolutely super wired he would have cruised through it. |
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12:03:04 PM |
I know nothing about The Nose other than studying it in terrifying detail when in Yosemite for 3 weeks in 2004. I am speaking from abject ignorance. That won't stop me giving an opinion though. To me, anologies between speed ascents of The Nose and Olympic sports don't add up. Olympic records represent limitations of human physiology. I could be wrong, but I doubt even Honnold was climbing at his aerobic or anaerobic limits all the way. Techniques, tactics and psychology must play a big part. If he was able to solo it with no fear and no need to slow down for safey then he could go much faster. Headspace is the rational limitation, not simply physiology. There is scope for both rational and irrational advances in headspace. |
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12:08:58 PM |
On 21/06/2012 ARidgley wrote: >To me, anologies between speed ascents of The Nose and Olympic sports >don't add up. Olympic records represent limitations of human physiology. >I could be wrong, but I doubt even Honnold was climbing at his aerobic >or anaerobic limits all the way. Techniques, tactics and psychology must >play a big part. If he was able to solo it with no fear and no need to >slow down for safey then he could go much faster. Headspace is the rational >limitation, not simply physiology. There is scope for both rational and >irrational advances in headspace. Exactly - there are so many variables to be improved upon, not just the physical. |
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12:12:39 PM |
Have Dean Potter and Alex Honnold ever partnered up for an attempt? Those two guys are the boldest big wall soloers I know of. | |||||
12:14:09 PM |
On 21/06/2012 simey wrote: > >Firstly, I have no doubt Honnold&Hans were climbing as fast they conceivably >could. Why the hell wouldn't they?! More to the point, I haven't read anywhere >where they said they lost time (ie, dropped/stuck gear, overtaking other >parties). I get the impression this was as close to the perfect ascent >as they are likely to get. > I'd be surprised if there aren't sections that can't be refined further. One obvious change would be to do it on a day with cooler temperatures. If that doesn't shave off a smidge I'd be surprised. >Of course true Olympic style dedication would no doubt break the two-hour >barrier in no time at all - that is why all the sports science and specialised >training developed over the last twenty years has had such an impact in >breaking the world long jump record, or breaking two hours for the marathon. > I think the long jump is the wrong analogy. Long jump is a very brief, technical event. A climbing equivalent would be bouldering. A better analogy would be 1500m swimming, requiring a combination of endurance and technique. The next goal for the 1500 is to break 14min 30sec. Hackett gave a big nudge towards that a few years ago but noone else has looked like getting there since. |
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12:34:44 PM |
On 21/06/2012 nmonteith wrote: >Have Dean Potter and Alex Honnold ever partnered up for an attempt? Those >two guys are the boldest big wall soloers I know of. The question on everybody's lips |
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1:15:08 PM |
On 21/06/2012 nmonteith wrote: >I just honestly don't believe they have reached the limit. I'm unsure why >you think THIS SPECIFIC ascent is the pinnacle of all that will ever be? >Why this one and not the last one? What grounds have you that this is the >fastest they will ever do it? Firstly, I have never said this record won't be broken, nor the two-hour barrier. My comments came about because Honnold and Hans had barely descended from El Cap and discussion had already started about there being pressure to break two-hours. I've already mentioned the bunch of reasons why I think this ascent is exceptional. I'm guessing that the methods used to speed climb the Nose are well and truly refined and so there is little room for improvement there. I also think that Honnold has been in outstanding form and that Hans has realised that this is a great opportunity to smash the record and was probably been training pretty hard as well. The fact that Honnold and Ueli Steck didn't make an impression on the record suggests just how impressive the former record time already was. For all we know the time set by Hans and Honnold might actually stop other parties from having a serious crack. Those who gave it everything on previous ascents might just accept that this new time is out of their league and not worth the risk. If that is the case, this record might just stand for a long, long time. |
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1:18:10 PM |
I feel a poll coming on. Those who think they will break the 2 hours and those who don't.... |
| There are 106 messages in this topic. |
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