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Piton on Plimsoll Line - Araps

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
10:02:51 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>It's one thing to place gear yourself and judge
>whether it's safe to continue but clipping a pin which you have no way
>of assessing is just blind faith, judgement doesn't come into it.

I call bullshit. When you place small wires behind the thin flake before the crux of Auto Da Fe, how do you judge whether it's "safe to continue"? The wires won't fall out, but trusting that the flake won't break, or flex enough to allow the RPs to pull through is nothing other than blind faith. There's lot's of that sort of thing about, trusting yourself to not fall off is often the best safety measure.


shortman

16-May-2012
10:07:05 PM

And a sure way to end up in hospital.

:P


nmonteith

16-May-2012
10:12:53 PM

On 16/05/2012 Doug wrote:
>There are two problems with this mentality. One is that it totally discounts
>the history of the route.

The hisotrical argument doesn't really cut it for me. If you wanted to climb it 'historically' you probably need to ditch the cams, use a waist belay, whilans harness and EBs and do it in yo-yo style.

>The other is that it classifies climbers into
>two extreme groups, whereas most of us are somewhere in between.

I know lots of sport climbers who believe pitons are like a bolt. Many years ago I belayed a german guy who led Kachoong by only clipping the two rusty pins. He did try and place some trad but was so incompetent he couldnt get anything else to stay in the cracks.

>This is one of only a few 22's on gear I've managed to lead at Arapiles
>- about 15 years ago

I also did it 15 years ago!

>and I was really glad the peg was there. It made
>the route feel safe enough

That's the problem - you felt safe. You had the illusion of safety - but without actually falling on the piton how do you know you were safe?

Has anyone actually weighted this piton recently? Or whipped on it? It's great to have a theory about the quality of the protection but we need some real world tests!

kieranl

16-May-2012
10:14:33 PM

On 16/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>I call bullshit. When you place small wires behind the thin flake before
>the crux of Auto Da Fe, how do you judge whether it's "safe to continue"?
It's called climbing judgement. And noone is promising that you will always make the right call.

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
10:35:41 PM

On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:

>That's the problem - you felt safe. You had the illusion of safety - but
>without actually falling on the piton how do you know you were safe?
>
>Has anyone actually weighted this piton recently? Or whipped on it? It's
>great to have a theory about the quality of the protection but we need
>some real world tests!

Replace the word 'piton' with 'natural gear' and see how silly that sounds. The problem is you're treating pegs as poxy bolts, rather than as suss natural gear. I feel that they lie somewhere between the two, and anyone who expects them to be universally bomber deserves what they get.

mothrfckr

17-May-2012
6:57:47 AM

On 16/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Let's get some perspective here from the climb description (thanks Mentz/Tempest);
>Plimsoll Line * 15m 22
>The elegant groove to the R of Orestes is a great pitch, although it requires
>a cool head to negotiate its potentially serious crux. It involves technical
>face climbing up the unforgiving seam past a shaky fixed piton. Just as
>you begin to question the wisdom of your situation, the seam widens to
>accept good wires. Anyone thinking of climbing this should have a good nollidge
>of how to assess shit-marginal trad gear, experience with assessing or ignoring the
>shit quality of pitons (Dolomites experience a bonus) and should generally be solid
>at the grade. Dont fall on the damn pin, LEADER DOES NOT FALL. THIS AINT
>SPORT. People die driving to the crag, dont be a statistic too, numpty.
>Clive Parker, Chris Baxter, John Moore; May 1968. FFA Kim Carrigan Dec'78. Added description by Mothrfckr.

Fixed for you.

uwhp510

17-May-2012
9:39:07 AM

On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>I know lots of sport climbers who believe pitons are like a bolt.

Therefore we should pander to their mistaken belief by turning every piton INTO a bolt?

Its pretty bloody clear from the description in the guide that the pin is (and possibly always was) sub-ideal.


nmonteith

17-May-2012
10:15:18 AM

On 17/05/2012 uwhp510 wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>I know lots of sport climbers who believe pitons are like a bolt.
>
>Therefore we should pander to their mistaken belief by turning every piton
>INTO a bolt?

No, you clearly haven't paid any attention to what I have been saying. I suggested just removing the piton and let people place their own removable trad in it's place.

cogsy

17-May-2012
10:19:53 AM

The main issue I can see here is that pitons tend to degrade with time, so when it was first placed, it probably was as good as a bolt (certainly as good as the rubbish that was called bolts in the 80s).
A ring, however, really does spoil the look and feel of the climb.
How about replacing it with a stainless-glue-in-carrot? This still gives quite a "trad-feel", but it doesn't have to be replaced every 5-10 years.
A hangerless "carrot" also gives that "80s Arapiles" feel that you want from a route like this one!

prb

17-May-2012
11:06:32 AM

Climb Orestes then toprope PL if you don't like the peg!

widewetandslippery

17-May-2012
11:51:53 AM

On 17/05/2012 prb wrote:
>Climb Orestes then toprope PL if you don't like the peg!

Word

gfdonc

17-May-2012
11:56:35 AM

The pin on Jenny Wren is in the same category. Very useful, but a crap placement and not easily to back it up.
Yet a while ago when I offered (off-forum) to the FA and a well-known guidebook editor to replace it with a shiny round thing it was rejected.
Clearly ppl have some emotional attachment to these things. And their old hemp rope perhaps? Give it another 10 years ...


sliamese

17-May-2012
2:27:52 PM

if you cant judge whether a pin is in good nick, dont climb the route.

if you feel like you'll rely on the piton, not yourself to get up the line, dont climb the route.

if somethings dangerous, but you'd rather it be safe, dont climb the route.

i think sanitising all the danger out of the sports not the best option. sure shitty pins should be pulled before they rust out. people need to forget the notion that they have some right to climb every route safely, thats what gyms are for....

a piton is not the same as a bolt. if this pin gets a bolt, so should india, punks already had its bolt restored to sack off the shitty fixed wire!


nmonteith

17-May-2012
2:34:05 PM

I'm a bit flabbergasted that the first piton on Kachoong got replaced with a shiny ring and no-one complained? How did that slip past the choppers?

Duncan

17-May-2012
2:48:50 PM

On 17/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm a bit flabbergasted that the first piton on Kachoong got replaced with
>a shiny ring and no-one complained? How did that slip past the choppers?

Shhhh!

kieranl

17-May-2012
3:35:14 PM

On 17/05/2012 sliamese wrote:
>a piton is not the same as a bolt. if this pin gets a bolt, so should
>india, punks already had its bolt restored to sack off the shitty fixed
>wire!
Punks also involved a retro of Punks In The Gunks, replacing the upside-down pin with a bolt (boo-hiss!). It's all highly selective what people chop or don't and the criteria that have been used certainly isn't clear.


ChuckNorris

17-May-2012
9:02:30 PM

First things first…ODH and KL I beat your 15 years ago by 10….June ’87 according to the KC bible (I gave up marking “ticks” in guides by about 89). Which would make it one of the first proper 22’s I ever lead

I’ve done the route a few times, admittedly not recently, but have never thought it as a death route needing retroing, I’m actually quite bemused that there appears to be such a scandal about it.

Am I wrong in thinking the hardest moves are pretty much off the deck? Sure scrambling up to clip the pin is a hassle, but hey if you need to downclimb so what. If you fell off midcrux surely you would be merely slumping on it, rather than whipping on it?

As soon as you do the crux the pin is below you and you are so close to the deck that I’m not sure whether it’s a pin or a bolt would really help (unless you have a roided up ben Johnson as your belayer).
My memories of the first time I did the climb are kind of like…shit…I pulled off the hard move off the deck! Better get my shit together (thankfully it’s a relatively comfortable stemming spot) and whack in a whole bunch of dodgy wires to give enough confidence to continue….and hey presto get your first good bit of gear in and now you are loving the climb.

You may not think it but I am pretty open minded about the whole retroing argument for particular routes. However, for plimsoll line, the argument is bullshit.


ChuckNorris

17-May-2012
9:31:23 PM

oops...sorry KL and ODH...I knew two people mentioned 15 years but after rereading the thread it wasn't you guys, but Doug and Nmonteith.

Not that any of that changes the essence of what i said.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-May-2012
9:42:00 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>How many numpties climb grade 22?
>Me occasionally. It was actually one of the first 22s that I led onsight
>(Collision Course was the first, about an hour earlier).
>

I doubt that even way back then you were a numpty Gd 22 climber, as I strongly suspect that you had the trad apprenticeship of working your way up through the grades, as was normal practice in those days, as compared to a gymnupbinging(!) these days!!

@ mothrfckr
>Fixed for you.

~> Well, fixed it for Mentz/Tempest at least...
Heh, heh, heh.

pecheur

17-May-2012
9:52:24 PM

On 17/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>On 16/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>>How many numpties climb grade 22?
>>Me occasionally. It was actually one of the first 22s that I led onsight
>>(Collision Course was the first, about an hour earlier).
>>
>
>I doubt that even way back then you were a numpty Gd 22 climber, as I
>strongly suspect that you had the trad apprenticeship of working your way
>up through the grades, as was normal practice in those days, as compared
>to a gymnupbinging(!) these days!!

Ah good you've sort of commented on what I was going to say anyway Rod. There are plenty of people these days that can climb 22 and are (fixed) gear numpties because of gyms. To them (and French sport climbers ...) a piton and a bolt are the same, fixed gear is fixed gear.

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