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Piton on Plimsoll Line - Araps

kieranl

16-May-2012
12:21:14 PM

Finally found the posts re Plimsoll Line. A bit of discussion about replacing the pins in May 2005.
Then this :
On 16/02/2006 The good Dr wrote:
>On 16/02/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>>On 16/02/2006 The good Dr wrote:
>>>Also, Plimsol Line pin replacements and rap from Flight Wall ledge chopped
>>
>>Please explain further? I don't quite understand what you mean.
>
>When I climbed Plimsol line late last year the manky pins had been replaced
>with rings. Rap rings from the boulder on the ledge at the base of Plimsol
>Line to the ground had been there for years (thankfully, as it is quite
>dodgy scrambling down in the wet). These have been chopped in the recent
>episode. I hope that makes sense.
So, that's the history.


Pat B

16-May-2012
1:00:43 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>Totally agree. Also the crack on Plimsoll Line gets quite wet so the pegs
>rust quickly.
Yes that is obvious from the green algae growing all over the face, so much so that I thought the route was unclimbable, maybe the algae was disguising the piton?!

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
4:34:47 PM

It seems like the o.p. might not have too many grades in hand for that route........does every route at the crag have to be in a state where it is safe to lead for someone sketching at their limit? Backing off is always an option if the pin seems too shit.

There must be twenty really good routes at the grade at araps which are totally safe the whole way. Plimsoll Line is a bit sketchy and always has been, if you don't want that experience don't climb it. If the climb never got done things would be a bit different but it still gets plenty of ascents, so leave it alone.

ademmert

16-May-2012
4:46:32 PM

On 16/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
does every route at the crag have to be in a state where it
>is safe to lead for someone sketching at their limit? Backing off is always
>an option if the pin seems too shit.
>
>There must be twenty really good routes at the grade at araps which are
>totally safe the whole way. Plimsoll Line is a bit sketchy and always has
>been, if you don't want that experience don't climb it. If the climb never
>got done things would be a bit different but it still gets plenty of ascents,
>so leave it alone.

Hat to admitt that i agree with ODH but in this case i totally agree!
Leave it alone

kieranl

16-May-2012
4:53:50 PM

On 16/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>It seems like the o.p. might not have too many grades in hand for that
>route........does every route at the crag have to be in a state where it
>is safe to lead for someone sketching at their limit? Backing off is always
>an option if the pin seems too shit.
The problem with this view it that assumes that you can do some sort of meaningful assessment of the pin on lead. Unfortunately that's pretty much impossible.
Assume that you're a super-cool dude like ODH and bridge daintily while inspecting the peg for security. That's all fine so far but unfortunately with a peg a visual inspection will only let you know how far out of the crack the thing sticks and how rusty that bit is.
What you've got to do now is hit it with your hammer.
What hammer? The hammer you have to carry to test fixed pitons off course!
The only vaguely reliable way to test the security of any piton, without actually falling on it is to hit it with a hammer.
If a climb relies on a fixed pin for protection it's a lottery. It's not about whether a peg looks good or not - you simply cannot tell by looking.

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
4:56:58 PM

Also, the rap rings off the ledge were an abomination. If you're going up there it's to climb routes in the 20's, so scrambling a gr1 ramp in the wet should present no problems (people who are comfortable climbing Have a Nice Flight, but uncomfortable scrambling the ramp probably should rethink their approach to rock climbing!)

bones

16-May-2012
4:58:52 PM

I agree with ODH that not all trad lines need to be safe, but I agree with Kieren that (where practical) fixed gear should be good.

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
5:07:32 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>If a climb relies on a fixed pin for protection it's a lottery. It's not
>about whether a peg looks good or not - you simply cannot tell by looking.

Is it really just that peg between the climber and the deck? I thought there were small wires about as well.

kieranl

16-May-2012
5:12:58 PM

On 16/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Is it really just that peg between the climber and the deck? I thought
>there were small wires about as well.
Can't recall, too long since I did it. The problem with pegs is that most people don't treat them as suspect so are likely to just clip the peg and ignore backup placements. I'll bet that's what most people do now - treat it as a semi-sport route.


shortman

16-May-2012
5:24:36 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>It seems like the o.p. might not have too many grades in hand for that
>>route........does every route at the crag have to be in a state where
>it
>>is safe to lead for someone sketching at their limit? Backing off is
>always
>>an option if the pin seems too shit.
>The problem with this view it that assumes that you can do some sort of
>meaningful assessment of the pin on lead. Unfortunately that's pretty much
>impossible.
>Assume that you're a super-cool dude like ODH and bridge daintily while
>inspecting the peg for security. That's all fine so far but unfortunately
>with a peg a visual inspection will only let you know how far out of the
>crack the thing sticks and how rusty that bit is.
>What you've got to do now is hit it with your hammer.
>What hammer? The hammer you have to carry to test fixed pitons off course!
>The only vaguely reliable way to test the security of any piton, without
>actually falling on it is to hit it with a hammer.
>If a climb relies on a fixed pin for protection it's a lottery. It's not
>about whether a peg looks good or not - you simply cannot tell by looking.

I like this kieran. Another one for the list then. Always wanted to carry a hammer up a climb. When was the last time someone gave the piton on Muldoon a love tap?

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
5:27:45 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>I'll bet that's what most people do now - treat
>it as a semi-sport route.

Probably true, but it doesn't really indicate a problem with the climb. Ringbolting routes like Plimsoll Line will only serve to encourage that approach to leading.


nmonteith

16-May-2012
5:53:42 PM

I reckon the best thing to do would be just remove it. Let hard men climb it without on fiddly trad - and it's absence will stop any numbties from trying the route belieiving its bomber like a bolt. Because realistically how many of you would be willing to take a lead fall on it if the consequences were broken legs/back/skull? I certainly wouldn't - I would be backing it the hell up with anything else I can find! As Kieren said - you have no idea if it will snap in two from rust or pop out because its held in by moss. At least with your own trad gear you know the equipment itself is reliable. Falling on this piton is just Russian roulette. Remove it!


nmonteith

16-May-2012
5:55:42 PM

p.s. I've removed (by hand) at least five pitons over the years at various crags. Many of them were on popular routes. Pitons work great if you are the one placing them - but they just don't last in the long term at all. Get rid of them all.


shortman

16-May-2012
6:32:23 PM

On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>Let hard men climb it without on fiddly trad - and it's absence will stop any numbties from trying the route belieiving its bomber like a bolt.

Amen


IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-May-2012
8:48:49 PM

On 16/05/2012 shortman wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>Let hard men climb it without on fiddly trad - and it's absence will stop
>any numbties from trying the route belieiving its bomber like a bolt.
>
>Amen
>
This concept is rubbish.
Since when is a fixed piton a bolt (aka pseudo sport route)?
How many numpties climb grade 22?

I agree with ODH reply here;
>>On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>I'll bet that's what most people do now - treat it as a semi-sport route.

>Probably true, but it doesn't really indicate a problem with the climb. Ringbolting routes like Plimsoll Line will only serve to encourage that approach to leading.

It's a trad route for goodness sake!

Let's get some perspective here from the climb description (thanks Mentz/Tempest);

Plimsoll Line * 15m 22
The elegant groove to the R of Orestes is a great pitch, although it requires a cool head to negotiate its potentially serious crux. It involves technical face climbing up the unforgiving seam past a shaky fixed piton. Just as you begin to question the wisdom of your situation, the seam widens to accept good wires.
Clive Parker, Chris Baxter, John Moore; May 1968. FFA Kim Carrigan Dec'78.

~> If a potential ascentionist can't stand at the base of a 15m route and assess it, then they shouldn't attempt it!
~> ~> because what you see is what you get!!
~> ~> ~> and if the original ascent required a piton to stop from decking out, with the grade ending up being 22; ... then a fiddly attempt at placing marginal gear, will result in quite a different climbing experience...


Doug

16-May-2012
9:02:41 PM

On 16/05/2012 shortman wrote:
>On 16/05/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>Let hard men climb it without on fiddly trad - and it's absence will stop
>>any numbties from trying the route belieiving its bomber like a bolt.
>
>Amen
>
There are two problems with this mentality. One is that it totally discounts the history of the route. The other is that it classifies climbers into two extreme groups, whereas most of us are somewhere in between.
This is one of only a few 22's on gear I've managed to lead at Arapiles - about 15 years ago - and I was really glad the peg was there. It made the route feel safe enough without making the climb into a dogger's route. If the peg can be replaced without doing further damage to the rock my vote is for a replacement.


Eduardo Slabofvic

16-May-2012
9:23:56 PM

It used to have two pegs


Duang Daunk

16-May-2012
9:39:54 PM

Just grid bolt it and be done with the argueing.

One Day Hero

16-May-2012
9:39:54 PM

On 16/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>The problem with this view it that assumes that you can do some sort of
>meaningful assessment of the pin on lead. Unfortunately that's pretty much
>impossible.

Something I always wonder about when people present this argument, is whether the situation is any different to marginal natural gear? Can you somehow test a less than ideal wire or cam while free climbing in some way that you can't test a piton?

Routes like Auto Da Fe, Scorpion Corner and Unrequited also have sections where ripped gear would result in bad times, and the gear is less than amazing. I think my placements would have held a fall, but wouldn't bet money on it (I certainly didn't feel like testing the theory by jumping off!)

I clipped an awful lot of pins worse than that one when I went climbing in the Dolomites, just wouldn't be the same over there without them. I found that a good hard yank on the the draw tells you a lot (not everything) about the pin you just clipped...............same as natural gear.

kieranl

16-May-2012
9:52:24 PM

On 16/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>How many numpties climb grade 22?
Me occasionally. It was actually one of the first 22s that I led onsight (Collision Course was the first, about an hour earlier).

I quite accept that the peg on Plimsoll isn't going to be replaced with a bolt. If someone did that it would quickly be chopped again and that would be a really dumb situation.

But I have a general problem with the concept of using pegs as fixed protection on popular crag routes. It's one thing to place gear yourself and judge whether it's safe to continue but clipping a pin which you have no way of assessing is just blind faith, judgement doesn't come into it. To be fair there is a similar blind faith involved in clipping bolts; you have to trust that the bolt was placed properly. But a bolt that has been well-placed will be much more reliable than a peg that has been originally well-placed.
Anyway that's more than enough from me. Let the thing rust in peace.

There are 75 messages in this topic.