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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 44
Author
steriods!!
(removed)
9-Jun-2004
3:16:43 PM
But I don't wanna have to drink 'roid smoothies or EPO in order to compete with top end triathletes Neil ! And I shouldn't have to. And same goes for climbers in climbing comp's (so this conversation is at least relevant to climbing.)

Your assumption that cyclists are happy to push themselves to near death is invalid - and so the comparison with mountaineers is irrelevant. None of the cyclists knew that blood thickening would cause their hearts to stop in their sleep ... the team doctor just said that they needed it in order to win and that it would be okay. Mountaineers know that they face objective dangers before they begin.

The "dope 'em up and let 'em go" attitude is a naive one pushed forward in general by non-athletes (Ron Clarke seems to be the exception, Kate Langbroek said it on The Panel once and I wanted to smash the T.V in a fit of ... errr steroid rage). The attitude these people have is that they couldn't give a shit about the long term health of the athletes. Steroids have been linked to the thickening of heart walls leading to heart attack. They are generally used in grave medicinal danger - like some cancer treatments and in treatment of HIV/AIDS - so don't go propounding the theory that since they are used in medicine (as is EPO) that it is therefore "safe" for general use.

I let it go before, but I don't have the restraint to stop this time: Neil, show me some literature that says that racing triathlons is dangerous for your health and I will stop. People making this sort of comment generally are making excuses because it will make them feel better about not doing it.

And a final word on drugs in sport from me: I've spent a lot of time (the last 20 years) competing in a number of sports at all levels right up to competing internationally. I've been fortunate enough to live and train with many internationals, including Commonwealth Games gold medallists and the highest ranked long distance triathlete in the world. AND I HAVE NEVER EVER ENCOUNTERED ANY DRUGS IN SPORT. EVER. The problem is exaggerated by the media, and when the occasional high profile athlete goes down, the public assume that everyone is one the gear. Generally it's just not the case: they are the exception, not the rule.

climbau
9-Jun-2004
3:23:29 PM
On 9/06/2004 FatBoy wrote:
> The problem is exaggerated
>by the media, and when the occasional high profile athlete goes down, the
>public assume that everyone is one the gear. Generally it's just not the
>case: they are the exception, not the rule.
Just to clarify,it is the reporting of drug use that has increased, not the actual use of drugs?
(removed)
9-Jun-2004
3:24:49 PM
Almost certainly. Sounds like "Bowling For Columbine" ...

Reporting of crime has doubled, actual crime had dropped ... culture of fear yada yada yada

{Edited to add following}
Plus, drug detection has improved. It seems very likely that almost the entire pro peleton in the 1970's were blood doping, that certainly wouldn't be the case now. No-one was caught in the 70's, half a dozen people a year are caught now.

nmonteith
9-Jun-2004
3:46:10 PM
People still smoke and drink in their millions even though they all know its dangerous - the same goes for performance enhancing drugs. People still take 'em as they produce results. I know nothing about competetive sports - i have never been involved in any. I understand the frustration you would have with having to compete against drug "cheats". They have obvioulsy decided it is worth the health risks to win - they are 100% commited to the end result. Most of us just don't care about winning that much - i would prefer a fun and enjoyable life than one completely devoted to one goal - to win.

PS I have lived/worked with several speed addicts over the years. I had no idea they were on the stuff and shooting up in our house for years. Just because you don't see it dosn't mean it doesn't happen.

manacubus
9-Jun-2004
4:27:09 PM
> I've been fortunate enough to live and train with many internationals, including Commonwealth Games gold medallists and the highest ranked long distance triathlete in the world. AND I HAVE NEVER EVER ENCOUNTERED ANY DRUGS IN SPORT. EVER.

Jesus, you've never been involved in track, have you? I'm very disturbed by the tales of a guy I work with who is a life-long sprinter and friend of many of the so called 'big name' Aussie track althletes.
deadpoint
9-Jun-2004
4:51:25 PM
Steriods are 35+ year old technology in the sport doping game.
Much better goodies are available today.

"I have never take performance enhancing drugs" -> The drugs i am taking are for injury recovery

"I have never taken illegal drugs" -> The drugs I am taking are not on IOC banned list

What are all those bumps in the Gas chromatagraph report -> Herbal additives.

(removed)
9-Jun-2004
7:47:30 PM
On 9/06/2004 manacubus wrote:
>Jesus, you've never been involved in track, have you? I'm very disturbed
>by the tales of a guy I work with who is a life-long sprinter and friend
>of many of the so called 'big name' Aussie track althletes.
No, clearly some sports are more affected than others, track being one of them, and cycling (historically) another.
Oh, and weightlifting, can't forget that.

mousey
9-Jun-2004
9:22:23 PM
heaps of people in the track etc. sports take things like creatine as it helps in a similar way but isnt classed as a 'drug' or 'steroid' by many official bodies so its use seems pretty flippant nowadays....

just curious- for you thin air freaks out there, what are your opinions on carrying dex? though i have never been in a situation where anything more than a bit of rest has been required, i wouldnt think about heading off up the icefall without that kind of stuff- do you consider it cheating of a sort, like wrecking the experience or taking the adventure out of it at all? (a bit like what dano said to andrew todhunter re: using backup ropes)
glacier-rat
9-Jun-2004
10:19:40 PM
Most commercial operators carry a comprehensive med kit containing medications such as dexamethasone, acetazolamide (diamox), nifedipine and a myriad of others.

The debate over benefits of diamox has been going on for many years, Ive used diamox a couple of times, but have found that the down sides to the drug outweigh any benefits.

I wouldnt consider it cheating at all, especially dex or diamox injections, if you're in a state where you or your team mate requires the administration of any or all of abovesaid drugs (other than diamox tablets as a "prevention"), you should be thinking about getting off the mountain.

Im heading off to south america in december and will be taking all of these with me. Id much prefer to take a bit of the adventure out of it and have my climbing partner or I live to undertake future adventures :)


mousey
9-Jun-2004
10:30:19 PM
i thoroughly agree with you, i just want to see what everyone out there thinks...

climbau
10-Jun-2004
8:52:19 AM
Personally, when it comes to the hills I would prefer not to take diamox or any other altitude drug. If I get crook and have to go down, then so be it. I really don't approve of preventative diamox.
If this opinion means that I never get up any hills, then so be it.

shaggy
10-Jun-2004
10:34:51 AM
Of course there are the situations of purely going down, is not an option, and the onset of PE can sometimes be quite rapid, these to situations combined is a worthy reason of carrying. Mind you I haven't carryed it myself, but more so due to shortened forsight.

vwills
10-Jun-2004
1:34:50 PM
There is a good review on Altitude illness in the British Medical Journal, April 2003.
Drugs can be taken in 2 settings: as prophylaxis or treatment so its important to differentiate.

Regarding Acetazolamide (Diamox): prophylaxis may be a good idea in people who have experienced AMS previously as this group is at high risk of recurrent symptoms.However the effective dose is unknown. The metaanalysis they included as a reference suggests 750mg as a once daily dose is effective whereas its more commonly suggested 125mg twice daily is the appropriate dose for prevention with few sideeffects such as tingling or excessive diuresis(pissing).
It is a sulphur derivative so beware of allergies.

Dexamethasone works as a preventative over 4000m but it has potentially dangerous side effects including psychosis or extreme euphoria, not good in a small tent a long way up a mountain.

Prophylactic aspirin does help and might have the added advantage of reducing deep vein thrombosis or stroke at the risk of an upset stomach or peptic ulcers.

One small trial I've read also suggests a high carbohydrate diet can help prevent symptoms as you produce more carbon dioxide which increases your respiratory rate ahead of other adaptive processes.

Like everyone else has said the most important thing is to ascend slowly and descend or rest if symptoms start.

Medical treatment of severe AMS/ cerebral oedema/ pulmonary oedema is not "cheating"! Its an attempt to save someones life. Over 7000metres about 1/5 deaths are related to altitude illness.
glacier-rat
10-Jun-2004
1:54:30 PM
750mg seems excessive, you wouldnt get out of base camp, youd be too busy pissing

nmonteith
10-Jun-2004
4:00:57 PM
Same topic from three years ago on Qurank!
http://p223.ezboard.com/fqueenslandclimbingdiscussion.showMessageRange?topicID=45.topic&start=1&stop=20

mousey
10-Jun-2004
4:35:14 PM
On 10/06/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>Climbau
>> Personally, when it comes to the hills I would prefer not to take diamox
>or any other
>> altitude drug. If I get crook and have to go down, then so be it. I
>really don't approve of > preventative diamox.
>> If this opinion means that I never get up any hills, then so be it.
>
>
>I'm with you.

im also with that, but id carry dex etc. for emergencies. if im gonna climb a mountain, IM gonna climb the mountain, but as was previously mentioned AMS is unpredictable and its onset can be swift. if one of your mates is developing hace of hape and your stuck up a mountain wouldnt it be a tad useful?? the idea is to get htem down safely, not to let them go up in circumstanceswhen they otherwise couldnt have
James
10-Jun-2004
10:13:34 PM
anyone here ever had altitude sickness (of whatever form/severity?)?? is it as simple to cure/prevent as takig a few pills?? I thought diamox was just a (strong) diuretic (spelling?)

runnit
10-Jun-2004
10:29:33 PM
Just read the Qurank thread and there's some good points there to think about, eh.

Just in my own opinion I really like what Manacubus and Captain Worm had to say, basically as long as your honest about the style you climbed and that you don't stop other people from achieving the climb in 'their own style' (maybe interpret as in a more purist style?) then that's cool. It kind of runs true for that massive debate about protecting and chipping a route that started in the '34?' thread too.

Just a question, I know bugger all about high altitude climbing and the drugs used to combat the related illnesses, so is there a clear line between what drugs are solely for 1st aid/emergency and what is performance enhancing or is it more like whether or not modern pro has made routes more climbable?

mousey
11-Jun-2004
7:22:44 AM
things like ginko help to prepare your body, things like diamox help when you're acclimatizing, dex etc. helps you get off the mountain- there a pretty clear line between the uses of different substances, and if used in the wrong way they can be easily fatal (eg. using dex so that you can keep going up means you'll probably die very rapidly of ams further up the mountain)
im just wondering, for a alpine guide where there is a responsibility to be able to function in top form so would it be more acceptable ona personal ethical standard to at least carry those substances? (which brings to light the debate of anatoli bourkreev's everest '95 actions- nb: im in full support of anatolis actions)
glacier-rat
11-Jun-2004
8:29:07 AM
i had mild HAPE 2 years ago at 6300m, i descended to 5000m took nifidipine and a diamox injection, then continued descent to 4000m. The symptoms subsided, though i still packed up and hauled ass out of base camp back to sea level, i was too exhausted from it all to contemplate going back up, and i'd lost the motivation.


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