Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

FREIGHT FREE
in Australia

Black Diamond: SET of 6 "C4" Cams and 6 matching wire Gates. Camelots sizes .4, .5, .75, 1, 2 & 3 and Nuetrino 6 Pack. SUPER Special!!! $435.00
20% Off

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Dargan Creek (Dams Cliff) Plan of Management


ratherbeclimbinV9

16/02/2012
12:41:50 PM

Andrew

Is the issue that has led to the proposal for regulation of bolting safety-related? Happy to try and dig out some useful stats to inform responses if so.

I think it would be worth asking John Davies if you don't know off the top of your head. Having reviewed the section that talks about bolting, the suggestion to regulate new bolting comes a bit out of the blue and there's no accompanying rationale other than the generic PoM objective of 'avoid, mitigate and manage risk'.

Pointless getting stats on how safe climbing is if the suggestion is there for aesthetic reasons.

Interestingly, the Plan itself says:
"The Blue Mountains City Council Nature-based Recreation Strategy 2005-2015 notes that recent reforms to Insurance Liability legislation have placed much of the responsibility for personal safety in recreation activities back onto the individual participant."

SRC Access Officer

16/02/2012
1:24:52 PM

On 16/02/2012 Useful wrote:
>Andrew
>
>Is the issue that has led to the proposal for regulation of bolting safety-related?
> Happy to try and dig out some useful stats to inform responses if so.
>
>I think it would be worth asking John Davies if you don't know off the
>top of your head. Having reviewed the section that talks about bolting,
>the suggestion to regulate new bolting comes a bit out of the blue and
>there's no accompanying rationale other than the generic PoM objective
>of 'avoid, mitigate and manage risk'.
>
>Pointless getting stats on how safe climbing is if the suggestion is there
>for aesthetic reasons.
>
>Interestingly, the Plan itself says:
>"The Blue Mountains City Council Nature-based Recreation Strategy 2005-2015
>notes that recent reforms to Insurance Liability legislation have placed
>much of the responsibility for personal safety in recreation activities
>back onto the individual participant."

I did ask him about this and his reply was that he didn't know where it came from. He said that the consultants who prepared the DPoM would have got it from somewhere, but he didn't know where.

I mentioned that bolting had been going on in the Mtns for quite some time now, and that the climbing community had a good track record with sharing best practices and bolt maintenance etc.

This didn't seem to be a big issue for him, but he asked me to mention it in the SRC's submission...


Climboholic

16/02/2012
2:03:14 PM

On 16/02/2012 SRC Access Officer wrote:

> ... John wants to
>sort out the Plan of Management first, and then sort out access to the
>reserve...

The PoM specifically details plans on access to Dam Cliffs, including plans for a car parking area at the current turnoff from Bells Line of Road and walking tracks to Dam Cliffs (this would mean a walk of approximately 2.5km to Dam Cliffs).

If we wait until the PoM is sorted out before we address access IT WILL BE TOO LATE!

Could the SRC please give consideration to the proposal I made in my submission to locate the car park further east on Bells Line of Road, where the road comes to within 300m of the Lower Dam?

Mr Poopypants

16/02/2012
8:37:29 PM

We do need to act on this NOW.
But, Climboholic - why don't we ask that the current carpark be maintained? There are lots of reasons:
The rail access road is there to stay and sees considerable traffic to maintain the tunnels.
The current top access track (which I understand the Railways helped establish) is only metres from the existing rail access road and Lithgow-Sydney electric train line (hardly wilderness)
The top carpark, next to the rail line could be fenced in just as easily and maintained as the carpark for the area. It is hard to believe there is any runoff from it. The erosion problems are all in the swamp.
The climbing community could be asked to chip-in for fencing the road, which I'm sure we could manage, after all we are talking about permanent access to The County and The Freezer, as well.

There are lots of options besides banning. They are talking about banning us from using an existing public access on public land, which will always be maintained at public expense.

G.


Climboholic

17/02/2012
1:01:35 AM

I thought the issue was that the first section of dirt road after you turn off the Sydney-Lithgow Rd is owned by rail corps and they don't want us to use it. I didn't know there was a 'top access track'.

The PoM is suggesting we park right beside the bitumen and walk in. It actually says that the 'bottom carpark' (closest to dam cliffs) is not at risk of errosion because it's on a rock slab. The swamp is only at risk of errosion if people take the short cut.

I agree with you that the best solution would be to leave the carparks exactly where they are and spend a bit of money to signpost and fence off the tracks people aren't supposed to go down. But if they are intent on making a new car park right beside the bitumen (with a set of walking trails) at least they could make it where the road is close to Dam Cliffs.

Mr Poopypants

17/02/2012
7:47:56 AM

I had conversations with Lands and the Railways a few years back and they were not opposed to the idea of fencing off the rail access road. We used to drive along it originally and when it was locked the current track to the Dam Cliff was extended past where the track runs down through the swamp (where the smashed up signal box is)

A half-arsed attempt was made to stop the 4wds using the old tracks by putting mounds across them, but of course the 4wders just saw that as more fun and the tracks got worse.

In my submission I am suggesting that either access road at the top could be fenced and gates placed to stop access beyond the top car park.

Note, too, that the DPoM is wrong about the carparks. The picture of their "top carpark" is actually the middle car park, the top one is virtually right next to the rail line (where we drive through the opening in the strange little piece of cyclone fence all on it's own. The gates onto the rail access road have never been vandalised at that point, as far as I know. Climbers haven't been doing that stuff, we just walk around.

Where the track is proposed to be will add a heap to getting to the Freezer. It will also not solve access issues. People are just going to be tempted to cross private land in Clarence to save the extra walk. There are more fire trails from Clarence than are shown on the map and they all cross private land. Their management plan is going to cause problems for their neighbours, because they are not providing appropriate access to the far end of the proposed expanded reserve.

G.

climberman

17/02/2012
8:30:53 AM

MrPP - could you mark up a map of that situation - I'd like to put it in my submission. Good point re increasing issues for neighbours by not meetingreserve access demand from users.


Climboholic

17/02/2012
1:44:57 PM

Mr Poopy Pants (please use that name in your submission).

What you are proposing sounds great and your argument about transferring the problem to neighbours is convincing.

As for the carparks, I interperet it the same way as the PoM; that the lower carpark is the one you're calling middle. Very few people actually drive right down to the dam and even if they blocked that road, it'll make little difference because it's such a short walk from the middle carpark anyway.

Good luck with your submission Poopy

Mr Poopypants

17/02/2012
4:11:23 PM

Hi Climberdude and Climboholic

I'll work on a map of the carparks.

The lower carpark is actually right at the dam wall. Quite a few 4wds take the challenge to get down there. There are generally at least a couple there on a hot day. Not climbers.

The middle is the one in plate 16 with the rock base. The problem for the trust is that to get to that car park a lot of 4wds use the track through the swamp.

The top carpark is the flat area between the rail access road and the rough track down to middle car park. This top access track is already fenced off on the rail side. Hasn't been broken down since it was done by Railcorp, as far as I know.

Would save at least 3km each way on the walk in to the Freezer compared to the proposed car park (which is closer to Bell than where the road is at the rail bridge)

It is only about 4mins longer to walk into the Freezer from the top car park than walking in past the resort (private land) but would be at least 40min to 1 hr longer from the proposed car park.

It would obviously also cost a lot to cut this proposed series of foot tracks in, money that could be spent providing more central access to the reserve.

It would be a long, hot day to visit the Freezer in summer if the new plan goes ahead.

I'm not against walking, some of my best friends have legs, but it seems ridiculous to cut a foot track in when there is a perfectly serviceable road already.

G.

climberman

24/04/2012
12:27:01 PM

Dudes - anyone heard anything ?

climberman

24/04/2012
12:45:22 PM

So, 13 mins after posting this I get an acknowledgement of my submission and an invite to a meeting from Lands.

Spooky !

Anyone from the Illawarra going up ? I might be able to make it, depends on work.

----------------------------------------------------------
As you are aware, the Department of Primary Industries, Catchments and Lands Division recently exhibited the Draft Plan of Management for the Dargan Creek Reserve. The exhibition period for the draft plan has now ended and a number of public submissions have been received including yours.

The Department acknowledges a high level of interest in the reserve so we are now proposing to hold a public meeting to discuss feedback received prior to finalisation and adoption of the Plan of Management.

The details of the meeting are as follows:

Location: RFS Clarence Fire Station – Meeting Room

Date: Wednesday 23rd May 2012

Time: 7:00 pm

RSVP: Please confirm attendance by either emailing

OrangeCrownLands@lands.nsw.gov.au or by telephone on (02) 6391 4329.

By Monday 21st May 2012.

Regards,


ecowain

24/04/2012
1:47:45 PM

We were just talking about it recently too.

I'm not from the Illawarra, but I'll be making the long trip from Mt Vic to Clarence :-)

climberman

24/04/2012
2:26:59 PM

Beware the Darling Causeway !!!!

Wollemi

23/05/2012
11:56:40 AM

Reminder about tonight's meeting...

The Department acknowledges a high level of interest in the reserve so we are now holding a public meeting to discuss feedback received prior to finalisation and adoption of the Plan of Management.

Location: RFS Clarence Fire Station – Meeting Room

Date: Wednesday 23rd May 2012

Time: 7:00 pm

RSVP: Please confirm attendance by either emailing

OrangeCrownLands@lands.nsw.gov.au or by telephone on (02) 6391 4329.

christos

23/05/2012
2:04:23 PM

For anyone who's going tonight, the RFS Fire Station is on Chifley Rd (Bells Line of Road). If you're heading west, its on the right just after the Zigzag Railway.

SRC Access Officer

24/05/2012
1:26:55 PM

Hi all

Not a bad meeting in Clarence last night. There were 20 or so people in total with 10 or so climbers. Apparently, of the 41 submissions received, 23 were from climbers.

It felt like a pretty good meeting to me. The Department of Lands representatives seemed to want to maintain access for climbers - there are just a lot of issues to juggle with private land, Railcorp land and Crown land being so intermingled. They have backed away from requiring approval to install bolts. They have backed away from prohibiting swimming.

The SRC (and others) will be approaching Railcorp in the near future to see if they can be persuaded to allow access through its easements, both to the Dams Cliff and Cosmic/Freezer (via Donaldson Road).

The Plan of Management will now be finalised (taking comments made at the meeting last night into consideration) and sent to the Minister for approval (who knows how long this will take).


superstu

24/05/2012
2:40:08 PM

That sounds really positive Andrew, great work.


kuu

24/05/2012
4:39:52 PM

On 24/05/2012 superstu wrote:
>That sounds really positive Andrew, great work.
>
No Stu, it sounds 'hopeful' not "really positive".

Yes, the Department of Lands has backed away from requiring approval for bolting and from prohibiting swimming, but that was always on the cards as they are astute enough to understand these matters aren't really within their control unless they're prepared to effectively police them.

The other issue, that of negotiating with RailCorp, will be a different matter. Past talks with RailCorp conducted by SRC and Blue Mountains Cliffcare about the Cosmic/Freezer access matter were polite and open but did not result in any significant changes.

RailCorp's legal position with regard to the easements is sound so why would they choose to risk that by allowing access to outsiders? This is the stumbling block climbers have to negotiate in order to (hopefully) gain access.

climberman

24/05/2012
4:53:27 PM

Thanks to all who attended on behalf of themselves and the climbing community.

Remind Rail Corp about the NSW Government mantra to 'Put the Customer at the Heart of Everything We Do", which is particularly strong in Transport for NSW.

The law is the law but policy interpretation can be varied.


kuu

24/05/2012
5:24:17 PM

On 24/05/2012 climberman wrote:
>Thanks to all who attended on behalf of themselves and the climbing community.
>
>Remind Rail Corp about the NSW Government mantra to 'Put the Customer
>at the Heart of Everything We Do", which is particularly strong in Transport
>for NSW.
>
>The law is the law but policy interpretation can be varied.

Hi Jules,

I know your involvement with these issues goes way back to the days of Cliffcare, and that aspects of the issue fall within your professional area, so maybe you could talk to (or offer advice to) Andrew on how best to approach this matter?

There are 71 messages in this topic.