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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 92
Author
Rock Magazine - new ed
drcranky
13/02/2012
11:09:55 PM
Debate and acknowledgement.

Mission accomplished.

Damo666
14/02/2012
12:40:31 AM
On 8/02/2012 Rockpub wrote:
>
>Our new editor is not a climber but he is a top class journo ...

Who let the current issue of the other magazine he 'edits' go out with a glaring typo on the cover - 'Artic Sailing'!


shortman
14/02/2012
1:38:52 PM
U R all being too harsh. I thought it was a great first up effort.
Olbert
14/02/2012
2:48:34 PM
On 14/02/2012 shortman wrote:
>Your all being too harsh. I thought it was a great first up effort.

As with all those people who say "His acting in that movie was amazing - such a good actor", I really have no idea how good the acting is until they make really bad mistakes/do a really bad job.

I'm not sure how good/bad the overall editing was but there were some blaring mistakes. I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt and say that he was handed a 'hospital pass' as someone else said above.
Damo666
14/02/2012
3:54:12 PM
On 14/02/2012 shortman wrote:
>Your all being too harsh. I thought it was a great first up effort.

OK then, says the person who misspells 'you're'! ;-)

Alpinist magazine, always financially marginal itself, recently shredded their whole print run because of one small typo on the cover. It's about doing the job right. If you can't get the basic stuff right - on two editions of two separate mags in a row - how will you* handle the hard stuff?

Mind you, the not-so-recent cover of Wild (Rock?) with the made-up name 'Peruvian Alps' was abysmal, so Ross was not immune either. I was certainly no fan of Chris Baxter, but I don't remember any cover bombs like those.





*to Mr. Rock Ed - just being harsh cos' it's the internet :) Good luck and hope to see things improve.

shortman
14/02/2012
9:37:43 PM
On 13/02/2012 drcranky wrote:
>Debate and acknowledgement.
>
>Mission accomplished.
>
>

Yeah it's really hard to get people to talk crap on this site.
Bet you can breathe easy now that you got that one out of the way.

stugang
14/02/2012
9:40:56 PM
On 14/02/2012 Damo666 wrote:
>On 8/02/2012 Rockpub wrote:
>>
>>Our new editor is not a climber but he is a top class journo ...
>
>Who let the current issue of the other magazine he 'edits' go out with
>a glaring typo on the cover - 'Artic Sailing'!
>
>

Hey chill out and give the guy a break - he's not a sailor but he's a great editor.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/02/2012
9:41:35 PM
On 14/02/2012 shortman wrote:
>On 13/02/2012 drcranky wrote:
>>Debate and acknowledgement.
>>
>>Mission accomplished.
>>
>>
>
>Yeah it's really hard to get people to talk crap on this site.
>Bet you can breathe easy now that you got that one out of the way.

Give him time. He only has 3 posts and they are all on this thread!

will5686
17/02/2012
12:34:43 PM
On 14/02/2012 Damo666 wrote:
>On 14/02/2012 shortman wrote:
>>Your all being too harsh. I thought it was a great first up effort.
>
>OK then, says the person who misspells 'you're'! ;-)
>
>Alpinist magazine, always financially marginal itself, recently shredded
>their whole print run because of one small typo on the cover. It's about
>doing the job right. If you can't get the basic stuff right - on two editions
>of two separate mags in a row - how will you* handle the hard stuff?
>
>Mind you, the not-so-recent cover of Wild (Rock?) with the made-up name
>'Peruvian Alps' was abysmal, so Ross was not immune either. I was certainly
>no fan of Chris Baxter, but I don't remember any cover bombs like those.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>*to Mr. Rock Ed - just being harsh cos' it's the internet :) Good luck
>and hope to see things improve.
>

I was really critical of mistakes in publishing, until I became a deputy editor myself. Then I realised that you can absolutely wreck yourself trying to make sure that none slip through yet they still do! You can read something ten times but not see the mistake until it is sitting on your desk in the magazine. Another pair of eyes always sees things that you don't, which is why we have sub-editors and editorial assistants and so forth. But magazine circulation is down over 5% in the last six months alone (according to the Australia Bureau of Circulation), so budgets are getting smaller, staff are getting paid less, contributors are getting paid less, and quality is necessarily going to go down.

As for him not being a climber, that's a problem. But if he immerses himself in the culture and is really careful to triple check all the climbing info in the articles, then he should learn more quickly than most new climbers. Who else can write off climbing guides, gear and time spent on forums as work expenses? And if he wants to get out on some rock and fiddle with knots I would be happy to take him climbing with me, as I am sure are most other people on this forum.

If we want a great climbing mag then we have to send in our expert stories and awesome pictures, tell them what gear we want reviewed, and just generally give them as much feedback as we can. CRUX was arguably the best magazine in the history of the world, and it was built on the back of real climbers' contributions. Rock can be the same, they just need that same level of community support, regardless of who the editor is.

Good luck new Mr. Rock, and if you want a deputy editor who is a climber, photographer and writer and who works on an outdoor/camping mag send me a PM - I could definitely put all that tester gear through the ringer for you :)

Claire
pecheur
17/02/2012
12:46:50 PM
On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:

>Good luck new Mr. Rock, and if you want a deputy editor who is a climber,
>photographer and writer and who works on an outdoor/camping mag send me
>a PM - I could definitely put all that tester gear through the wringer for
>you :)
>
>Claire

Sorry it's a pet hate and since we're talking about writing anyway ...

will5686
17/02/2012
12:53:07 PM
On 17/02/2012 pecheur wrote:
>On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>
>>Good luck new Mr. Rock, and if you want a deputy editor who is a climber,
>>photographer and writer and who works on an outdoor/camping mag send
>me
>>a PM - I could definitely put all that tester gear through the wringer
>for
>>you :)
>>
>>Claire
>
>Sorry it's a pet hate and since we're talking about writing anyway ...

Damn, I knew I'd get roasted about something! Now I have no chance of working at Rock :)
Oh well, I'm lucky my current job gives me camping gear to test.
One Day Hero
17/02/2012
12:58:17 PM
You can't write about climbing if you don't climb. Going out and having a day of toproping ain't gonna help......have you listened to the shit that comes out of peoples mouths after the first few days of climbing?

I would suggest that the new bloke's success is quite heavily dependant on him not actually writing anything in his magazine!
Damo666
17/02/2012
1:50:53 PM
On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>
>I was really critical of mistakes in publishing, until I became a deputy
>editor myself. Then I realised that you can absolutely wreck yourself trying
>to make sure that none slip through yet they still do! You can read something
>ten times but not see the mistake until it is sitting on your desk in the
>magazine. Another pair of eyes always sees things that you don't, which
>is why we have sub-editors and editorial assistants and so forth.

Which Rock has, no? But I agree about the invisibility of typos and needing more eyes. We all f#@k up. We all need help. But certain typos like 'artic', 'antartic', 'Columbia' (the country!), are common to people who don't know what they're talking/writing about. Paying them more won't make them smarter.

>But magazine
>circulation is down over 5% in the last six months alone (according to
>the Australia Bureau of Circulation), so budgets are getting smaller, staff
>are getting paid less, contributors are getting paid less, and quality
>is necessarily going to go down.
>..... But if he immerses himself
>in the culture

I don't think those two sentences go together. With fast-diminishing returns in the business, what's his incentive to become increasingly specialised from a zero-start? He'll just follow the mainstream money.

>
>If we want a great climbing mag then we have to send in our expert stories
>and awesome pictures,

People already do that - only to have them mucked up by careless editing. It can be quite disheartening, and with diminishing rates for contributors, why bother?

>give them as much feedback as we can. CRUX was arguably the best magazine
>in the history of the world,

Good one.

>
>Good luck new Mr. Rock,

Yep ...

will5686
17/02/2012
2:27:01 PM
>>But magazine
>>circulation is down over 5% in the last six months alone (according to
>>the Australia Bureau of Circulation), so budgets are getting smaller,
>staff
>>are getting paid less, contributors are getting paid less, and quality
>>is necessarily going to go down.
>>..... But if he immerses himself
>>in the culture
>
>I don't think those two sentences go together. With fast-diminishing returns
>in the business, what's his incentive to become increasingly specialised
>from a zero-start? He'll just follow the mainstream money.

Sorry, I should have clarified that if you look at the circulation figures the major falls are in the 'mainstream' publications, ie. those with a general audience. Magazines like FHM and Womens Weekly are suffering the most. Niche magazines have, in general, performed better. So the mainstream money is drying up, because these are the products that compete the most with FMCG like chocolate bars, whereas 'hobby' magazines have a more dedicated audience who have fewer options for finding that information elsewhere. So he doesn't really have the option to bail out and "follow the money", therefore he has a good motivation to learn. Besides, climbing is awesome, why wouldn't he want to take the opportunity to get paid to learn about it?

I admit that the whole plan could seriously backfire and they could lose their audience, especially if he doesn't learn quickly. But people buy magazines to look at the pretty pictures, which he can't really mess up, except by leaving out captions, and I am sure he has already learnt his lesson with that one.

>It can be quite disheartening, and with diminishing rates for contributors,
>why bother?

It is my understanding that none of the folk writing for CRUX got paid, except for a few of them who got prizes that were probably donated. If people were willing to write interesting and funny articles for free, then I assume that even a token payment will motivate people to send stuff in.

But then again, getting paid for things does tend to change people's attitudes towards what they are doing, making them less motivated and more disgruntled. If you have read Dan Ariely's "Predictably Irrational" then you know what I am talking about. Here is a good article summarising the idea: www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2008/09/17/why-good-deeds-and-money-dont-mix/

So the motivation to send stuff in shouldn't be to get paid a token amount of money, but to be part of an awesome magazine that is better for your contribution.

nmonteith
17/02/2012
2:30:53 PM
At CRUX I had a volunteer team of about 6-8 experienced climbers read each and every article we published. The subeditors were from all corners of the country and generations which meant (usually) historical, geographical and technical mistakes were found early on. The PDF proof of the mag was then sent to the same people before we hit the print button - that usually found the typos.

One thing we never did at CRUX was change the wording from an authors original submission WITHOUT their direct approval. Sometimes this involved a bit of to and froing but it meant that the author was always happy with the final result - which meant they were willing to send us future articles as well. I remember being burnt by Chris Baxter at Rock when one of my articles got heavily edited - in one instance he actually changed the historical accuracy of the article (the wrong first ascentist was credited for a controversial route). I know that this incident made me put on hold any further submissions to Rock for several years as I didn't have faith in their editing process.

As a climbign editor I found it was a mammoth task to foster the writers and photographers to submit consistent material issue after issue. Many times I had to be very proactive - ie shooting photos for an article that had no photos, or visiting climbers around Australia to build relationships. I think being part of the 'scene' is almost vital to be an editor of such a niche sport - that is ruled by jargon, contrived ethics and tribal allegiances to places and people. Ross, and before him Chris did an excellent job of being an active part of this fragmented climbing community.

nmonteith
17/02/2012
2:37:29 PM
On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>It is my understanding that none of the folk writing for CRUX got paid,
>except for a few of them who got prizes that were probably donated. If
>people were willing to write interesting and funny articles for free, then
>I assume that even a token payment will motivate people to send stuff in.

Correct. The only people who got paid at all at CRUX were a couple of freelance designers we hired for the last few issues when our 'free' designer got tired of doing it for free!
Access T CliffCare
17/02/2012
2:41:36 PM
Ah yes, editing. Ross turned me into a down and out alcoholic writer before I even became one by editing my first Access article for Rock. What was left could hardly be called an article - more a small announcement. I mean it's not like I waffle on at all and that Access isn't a sexy subject or anything. Sure, my photos of erosion and track delineation aren't always what you would call buff, but still.....

will5686
17/02/2012
2:41:53 PM
>As a climbign editor I found it was a mammoth task to foster the writers
>and photographers to submit consistent material issue after issue. Many
>times I had to be very proactive - ie shooting photos for an article that
>had no photos, or visiting climbers around Australia to build relationships.

This is why most magazines won't get changes approved by the original writer. I'm not saying it's right - it is just what people do.

>I think being part of the 'scene' is almost vital to be an editor of such
>a niche sport - that is ruled by jargon, contrived ethics and tribal allegiances
>to places and people. Ross, and before him Chris did an excellent job of
>being an active part of this fragmented climbing community.

I agree. That doesn't preclude the new editor (I have the magazine, I really should check his name) becoming part of the scene. If the publisher is convinced that this is the guy for the job and the climbers want a good aussie climbing magazine (which I do - I can't afford to fly to America for a climbing holiday) then they are going to have to embrace him.

Or we could picket Prime Creative Media till they hire someone already in the scene, but South Melbourne is probably too close to Burnley to keep us there for that long... And with all the negativity flying around Chockstone these days (which is why I don't generally post here any more) any replacement would probably get similarly disparaged anyway. May as well embrace the guy and use his inexperience as a way to get him to listen to our ideas about what should be in the magazine.

I also cannot believe you got 6-8 climbers to volunteer to edit that magazine. There is no way any small magazine has anything close to that. Sometimes when I write stuff for my mag no-one subs it, it goes straight from my head to the reader, which I know results in more mistakes.

kuu
17/02/2012
2:45:21 PM
On 17/02/2012 access t wrote:
>Ah yes, editing. Ross turned me into a down and out alcoholic writer before
>I even became one by editing my first Access article for Rock. What was
>left could hardly be called an article - more a small announcement. I
>mean it's not like I waffle on at all and that Access isn't a sexy subject
>or anything. Sure, my photos of erosion and track delineation aren't always
>what you would call buff, but still.....

Ah, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Start your own Blog ... ;-)

will5686
17/02/2012
2:48:25 PM
On 17/02/2012 access t wrote:
>Ah yes, editing. Ross turned me into a down and out alcoholic writer before
>I even became one by editing my first Access article for Rock. What was
>left could hardly be called an article - more a small announcement. I
>mean it's not like I waffle on at all and that Access isn't a sexy subject
>or anything. Sure, my photos of erosion and track delineation aren't always
>what you would call buff, but still.....

I think the reason that there are so many massive egos amongst writers is that you have to deal with huge amounts of rejection and ridicule, so only the big egos survive. Or the ones that are too drug-munted, or drunk, to care, Hunter S Thompson style.

Though the most fun part about sub-editing something is cutting something apart and putting it back together like a pastiche. I like to think I make stories better by doing this, but reading all these comments is making me think that the authors might not agree...

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