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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 92
Author
Rock Magazine - new ed

nmonteith
17/02/2012
2:57:27 PM
On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>I also cannot believe you got 6-8 climbers to volunteer to edit that magazine.

I believe many did it because they were all passionate climbers who liked to read about new areas and gossip 3 months before everyone did! They were all very pro-active, usually offering suggestions for re-writes or appropriate photos that had seen elsewhere. They did a really excellent job and I am forever thankful to them all for making my life easier. All of CRUX was edited remotely - articles were hosted via Google Docs - so people just tuned in and out when they had time and left comments which I managed. It worked really well.

Damo666
17/02/2012
3:20:32 PM
On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>>>
>But then again, getting paid for things does tend to change people's attitudes
>towards what they are doing, making them less motivated and more disgruntled.
>If you have read Dan Ariely's "Predictably Irrational" then you know what
>I am talking about. Here is a good article summarising the idea: www.scotthyoung.com/blog/200
>/09/17/why-good-deeds-and-money-dont-mix/

Yes, but I'm not sure that linked summary helps your point. It distinguishes Social and Market Norms (ie. volunteering articles and help for fun or non-monetary reward etc, and doing so because you're getting paid, as a job) and notes that "like oil and water: they don't mix."

The problem is that ink, paper, servers, power bills, distribution are not free, and you need to charge for the mag, so money invariably enters the equation somewhere and it all falls down.

It also notes, "..the performance of those working for cash was largely based on how much they were paid." People will work for free for a while, even in a commercial operation, but only for a while. Once they don't want to work for free, but have to work anyway, things go down ...

Either doing things for fun and free is good, and doing things for money is fine too, but it's mixing them up that causes problems.

But in general I agree that getting paid to do something as a job changes your view of it. This is particularly important with hobbies, interests or passions, like climbing. Making it a job can kill the passion. I say this as someone who actually got paid to climb and organise expeditions for eight years - not guide, not rescue people or carry rocks, but climb. I see it all the time. There are many reasons why pro climbers are not pro climbers forever ...

will5686
17/02/2012
3:37:55 PM
On 17/02/2012 Damo666 wrote:
>On 17/02/2012 will5686 wrote:
>The problem is that ink, paper, servers, power bills, distribution are
>not free, and you need to charge for the mag, so money invariably enters
>the equation somewhere and it all falls down.

Yes, someone obviously has to pay for the mag to be produced, but this is the publisher, not the writers. Maybe it is better if you can keep the writers away from the money side of things altogether? I guess that is kind of what online forums do...

>Either doing things for fun and free is good, and doing things for money
>is fine too, but it's mixing them up that causes problems.

Yeah, you are right here. That is why magazines with a massive amount of reader contributed content tend to do well. Their writers get a fuzzy feeling from seeing their stuff in print, and the readers get to read really interesting and unstaged content from people who are just like them.

So I guess my point was that people should just try to ignore the measly amount they are getting paid and contribute to Rock because they want that fuzzy feeling... but I admit this might not be possible. And I wasn't very clear when I was explaining myself either, sorry. I knew the information was relevent somehow though.

>But in general I agree that getting paid to do something as a job changes
>your view of it. This is particularly important with hobbies, interests
>or passions, like climbing. Making it a job can kill the passion.

So true. Because at some stage you are going to have to do it at a time when you don't want to, which makes you love the activity just that little bit less.

nmonteith
17/02/2012
3:38:56 PM
CRUX was obviously not sustainable financially using the 'free' model... what happened is that over time various people dropped off, leaving a larger and larger workload on the left over "staff". In the end that staff turned into two people.

What I can say is that even though I wasn't being paid a cent to make CRUX, the effort of editing also wore my enthusiasm out. It was still a job - but I just didn't get paid!
RNM
17/02/2012
3:40:20 PM

>I also cannot believe you got 6-8 climbers to volunteer to edit that magazine.
>There is no way any small magazine has anything close to that.

The point you are missing is that everyone who contributes is passionate about climbing. This is why they contribute. As you pointed out earlier, climbing is a "hobby"(!?). All the contributors have full time jobs already, and they only contribute for love/prestige etc. Of course money is a bonus...

People nurture their contributions like children, and then send them off. They are not churning them out, simply to make a dollar.

The NZAC Climber magazine is excellent. Far superior to Rock in my opinion. Contributors are paid a token amount for articles, and everyone invests in a great product. One editor who sends final copy to contributors before going to print. People are proud of the magazine, and rightly so. Works very well (from a consumers perspective, interested to know Kester's thoughts as editor).

As you said, "... the motivation to send stuff in shouldn't be to get paid a token amount of money, but to be part of an awesome magazine that is better for your contribution."

If the magazine is awesome, the contributions will come. If it appears to be a hashed together generic, by a corporation with no interest or passion in climbing, then up to date, relevant and informed contributions might dry up. Although as the only climbing mag, Rock is in a good commercial position.

Lastly, your comment "I can't afford to fly to America for a climbing holiday" seems wrong to me, but probably demonstrates a difference in commitment. How can a climber NOT go to the US! Priorities all wrong! :)



Damo666
17/02/2012
3:43:30 PM
On 17/02/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>I remember being burnt by Chris Baxter at Rock when one of my
>articles got heavily edited - in one instance he actually changed the historical
>accuracy of the article (the wrong first ascentist was credited for a controversial
>route). I know that this incident made me put on hold any further submissions
>to Rock for several years as I didn't have faith in their editing process.
>

Yep. I was always ambivalent about Rock, at least for alpine stuff, so never submitted, quite deliberately. Then one issue they printed something that I had written for another publication, put my name on it like I had submitted it to them as news, which it was not, no reference to the other publication, and sent me a cheque for $5. Yes, $5.

So I rang him him and quite politely said what had happened. He quite bluntly said, word for word. "Do you have a problem with that?". After much bluffing and blustering in his part, and going over the legalities, he admitted they shouldn't have done it. I rang a climber who is also a lawyer and he said straight up this was not the first time he'd been called about the exact same thing done by Chris. Chris rang back, reiterated he'd done the wrong thing and said they'd publish a note in the next issue, at least acknowledging the original source. As expected, they didn't. In publishing, like in any business, as in life, sh!t happens. So I could excuse the act, but not the attitude. I always admired that he'd kept Rock in print for so many years, but I'm not sure I admire how he did it.

I never did cash that cheque ...

will5686
17/02/2012
4:05:45 PM
I feel like I am hijacking this thread, but it is so interesting. Until I could get the cost of magazines reimbursed by my workplace the only climbing mag I felt was worth the money was CRUX, and since it has gone I have missed it. The forums really don't replace a quality print product that is positive and even handed.

On 17/02/2012 RNM wrote:
>
>Lastly, your comment "I can't afford to fly to America for a climbing
>holiday" seems wrong to me, but probably demonstrates a difference in commitment.
> How can a climber NOT go to the US! Priorities all wrong! :)

To be honest I am not much of a climber. I haven't ever gotten much better for a number of reasons and I've never even stayed at the pines for longer than two nights! I tend to divide my time amongst too many activites, so I never get very good at any of them (I have a whole bucketload of fun though). I also care way too much about what my Mum thinks I am doing with my life... But I still like to read about what other climbers are up to, and drool over pictures of people climbing.

>The NZAC Climber magazine is excellent. Far superior to Rock in my opinion.
> Contributors are paid a token amount for articles, and everyone invests
>in a great product. One editor who sends final copy to contributors before
>going to print. People are proud of the magazine, and rightly so. Works
>very well (from a consumers perspective, interested to know Kester's thoughts
>as editor).

I would also love to hear what Kester has to say, I'll have to pick up a copy of the mag, though I have never seen it in the big shops like MagNation. I'll look online.

>If the magazine is awesome, the contributions will come.

Hopefully this is what the new editor is trying to do, although if he is spreading his time amongst many magazines he might not achieve it. I am an eternal optimist though, so I hope he does!

And if he doesn't I will just have to start thinking about how I can convince another publisher to get a better magazine happening.
RNM
17/02/2012
4:46:26 PM
See here.

http://alpineclub.org.nz/the-climber
Duncan
12/04/2012
11:58:35 AM
Do any subscribers have the most recent edition yet? I've been a subscriber for 8+ years, and it seems like my copy is coming later and later each quarter. It's always at gyms/shops well before my copy comes. I realise that there's been the Easter long weekend, but what the hell?

*shakes fist* Shouldn't you kids be at school? Get off my lawn, etc.

cruze
12/04/2012
12:25:35 PM
On 12/04/2012 Duncan wrote:
>Do any subscribers have the most recent edition yet? I've been a subscriber
>for 8+ years, and it seems like my copy is coming later and later each
>quarter. It's always at gyms/shops well before my copy comes. I realise
>that there's been the Easter long weekend, but what the hell?
>
>*shakes fist* Shouldn't you kids be at school? Get off my lawn, etc.
We got our issue of Climber about a week ago. But we do live about 2 km from NZAC head office.
Duncan
12/04/2012
12:29:50 PM
Oh sorry, I'm whinging about Rock, not the Climber. Thinking about it though, when I was a member of NZAC, I think the Climber generally arrived before Rock anyway.

ajfclark
13/04/2012
9:41:57 PM
On 12/04/2012 Duncan wrote:
>Do any subscribers have the most recent edition yet?

Mine just arrived today. One of the first articles is abotu Goatfest and tells me there's still time to get my submission in...

The front cover says March - May but it's halfway through April... I wonder if something went wrong.
tastybigmac
14/04/2012
2:41:50 PM
At least they fixed all the problems on the front cover after they were pointed out to them on facebook before it went to print, otherwise it would still say Nathan is Hotte....

wallwombat
15/04/2012
10:27:13 PM
I gave up when the guy couldn't spell "Arctic" .
Will_P
9/10/2012
5:21:31 PM
Spring 2012 edition arrived last night, and took all of 90 minutes max to digest cover-to-cover, but I've never expected 'Alpinist'. Overall, slightly improved by the articles - though they still need (further? more?) proofreading and editing (editing as in 'at this point you sound a bit like a tosser, which is not in keeping with the rest of the article - why don't you rephrase it like this?'. And it'd be nice to have the author's name attached - I figured it was Maccazia writing, rather than Simon or Monique, about the 32 crack, but had to get through a few paragraphs first. And while the cover did mention it, it would've been nice to have Mike Law's name attached to his work (or was it Michael Law? There was both a Mikl and Michael Law in the 'Contributors', and while I know they both exist, did they really both contribute to this edition? (If so, I take back my superior tone) The Japan article was okay (though strangely specific); the mixed climbing article was okay - I like that there's some alpine stuff in the last few issues, either NZ or Tas, how about some further afield stuff? Damo666 or Radson have some stories to tell. The Grampians article seemed more about Arapiles, and contained some pretty random little anecdotes, but I'm sure they were of the 'if you'd been there you'd understand' kind. Biggest failures were the yoga article - no links made to climbing; the editorial and cover headline on bolting - editorial was strangely worded by someone who seems acquainted with only the very surface of the issue and an unfamiliarity of bolting per se (Neil, give the guy access to the Safer Cliffs forum and a tute, please!); the tone taken in the 'Beta' piece about the horrific murder of Jack Mileski (I might be overly sensitive, but it sounds like it's being glamorised yet is questionable, when it violently ended the life of a man who gave a lot to climbing, and to vulnerable members of his community); and, biggest fail, the two-page spread imploring us to support bricks-and-mortar retailers here in Aus, just before, turn the page... a two page 'rock gear' feature, featuring, yet again, products with the description and assessment taken straight from the manufacturers copy, and, rather than 'You can buy these at Rock Hardware or Climbing Anchors', the website of the manufacturer or distributor. I mean, you could be more hypocritical, but how? And seriously, testing gear and giving an honest review is not hard. Risky for the mag? Maybe a touch, but it'd give you credibility. You wouldn't have to pay anyone, and you could ensure it was constructive, if not positive. Loan me one of those BD helmets, I'll tell you how it compares to all the others I've worn. Loan me the Garmin GPS watch, I'll compare it to my, um, non-GPS Suunto. Open up the gear testing to the public, it's the easiest first step to getting your mag back on track.

salty crag
9/10/2012
9:24:45 PM
Agree with Will P. Twas an improvement but as a Gramps enthusiast I was disappointed that the article wandered off track. Not that I don't love Araps.
Damo666
10/10/2012
3:51:21 PM
On 9/10/2012 Will_P wrote:
>... and, biggest fail, the two-page spread imploring
>us to support bricks-and-mortar retailers here in Aus.

Yep. As a previous critic, I agree the mag as a whole was an improvement, though there were some odd bits.

But those retailer ads really get me. They want to spend money on smarmy advertising which would be better spent stocking current lines and keeping knowledgeable staff. The in-store prices here remain ridiculous, particularly on big name brands of clothing and alpine gear. Last gasps of a dying species, poisoning any goodwill on their way out.
Duncan
22/10/2012
1:10:02 PM
A few glaring errors remained. In the editorial, Mt Arapiles was referred to as "the Arapiles" - if ever you needed a sign that the editor wasn't a climber, this is it. Do you call it the Everest? The Kosciusko? Also, what kind of editor allows the sentence "Next time your going climbing..." to go to print?

I've been reading over some older copies of Rock edited by Baxter, Megan and Ross recently, and he's got a long, long way to get even close to the quality they produced.
Damo666
22/10/2012
1:43:19 PM
On 22/10/2012 Duncan wrote:
>A few glaring errors remained. In the editorial, Mt Arapiles was referred
>to as "the Arapiles" - if ever you needed a sign that the editor wasn't
>a climber, this is it. Do you call it the Everest? The Kosciusko? Also,
>what kind of editor allows the sentence "Next time your going climbing..."
>to go to print?

Actually, strange as it seems, I've heard 'the Arapiles' a few times over the years. My ex-gf used to say it too, and she'd climbed there in the early 90s. Is it a Melb thing?

'Your' not 'you're' is unforgiveable though. He should be sentenced to 24hrs of listening to Dean Potter and Chris Sharma discuss being 'spiritual'.

rodw
22/10/2012
1:44:32 PM
I've seen many climber on this website refer to it as "the Arapiles" so I would hazard a guess that in itself isn't a good test.

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