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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 31
Author
insure4less "multi stage ascent" clause
AndyJS
11/01/2012
11:03:39 AM
Hi all,

I'm in the market for some climbing insurance and I've searched many of the previous threads on chockstone but haven't found an answer to this one:

On the climbing specific pages of the policy (http://www.insure4less.com.au/page/Travel-Insurance-Rock-Climbing) they make mention of the following - "This insurance will not cover you for: Any ice, glacier, freesolo or solo, alpine or traditional climbing, or ANY CLIMBING/TREKKING INVOLVING MULTI STAGE ASCENTS, professional guides or porters without the prior specific approval of Underwriters." (emphasis added).

Has anyone ever queried this with them before? Do they take this to mean any climb where you need to set a belay at any point before the top (even if there is a dedicated fixed belay station)?
dfinnecy
11/01/2012
12:38:15 PM
wow, i can't imagine those policies having any worth at all, even the alpine package say no multi stage. Huh?

Maxo
11/01/2012
12:53:36 PM
Can you think of any other possible meaning of 'multi-stage ascent' in the context of climbing generally? I'm taking it that it's not defined in the interpretation section of the contract.

cruze
11/01/2012
1:12:24 PM
I would have though multi-stage would have referred to acclimatization stages in the mtns. Otherwise bushwalking with an overnight camp might be excluded under trekking with multiple stages.

Seems trad climbing in all forms is excluded but perhaps sports is in? You might have to skip the odd gear placement on mixed rock routes in order to keep within the policy ;)
AndyJS
11/01/2012
2:15:04 PM
Trad is included in the "Alpine" plan, which is essentially the same as the "Standard" plan except that it doesn't explicitly rule out placing your own gear on lead. However the multi stage ascent reference is in both plans with the same wording.

I too was thinking it might refer to the acclimatisation phase of a summit attempt or something, however it's not clear. And when it comes to insurance anything not clear is something that can be disputed in the event of a claim, which is quite a risk. There's no reference to the words "stage" or "ascent" in the product disclosure statement - http://www.insure4less.com.au/icms_docs/102650_Product_Disclosure_Statement_v5.pdf - and the word "multi" only comes up outside of the context of climbing. I can't find a PDS specific to the rock climbing policy but perhaps i've overlooked it somewhere?

Sabu
11/01/2012
2:17:40 PM
Just email them and query it. They were fairly good at getting back to me last time I went with them.

Andrew_M
11/01/2012
2:18:29 PM
I got a quote from them recently for an ice climbing trip and they had no problems covering that so trad should be OK . I had exactly the same question about "multi-stage" climbing but forgot to ask for clarification, i.e. whether that meant multi-pitch or an alpine climb with multiple camps. They wanted to know heights of climbs etc which I think I put down were up to 300m, which would obviously be multipitch (logically, but when did logic come into it). Need to get that clear pretty quick smart!
AndyJS
11/01/2012
2:20:02 PM
Yeah, I'll most likely do that. I'm still at the browsing stage, so when I get to the quoting stage I'll certainly ask (and report back here for anyone wondering).

Cheers :)
citationx
11/01/2012
2:20:04 PM
On 11/01/2012 Sabu wrote:
>Just email them and query it. They were fairly good at getting back to
>me last time I went with them.

I was at this point of the thread too. Looking at the page you specified up top, it gives the email address of an actual person for queries (mr webb) - not some generic mailbox. I'm sure the person will be able to answer specific qs. (don't forget to let us know the outcome(s)!)

-ps youse beat me by seconds :-(
-pps was also going to say that by getting it directly from him, it makes it much harder for them to dispute any claims/issues...
AndyJS
11/01/2012
2:45:54 PM
Email sent. I'll let you know what they say. I mentioned in my email the point that Andrew M raised - they will insure for climbs to a height that necessitates a multi-pitch approach, so therefore I assume that this is covered (but asked them to specifically clarify that it is).

Seems logical. Hope logic applies. ;)
jono_1
11/01/2012
2:52:57 PM
I wouldn't take take out this insurance policy with the expectation that they will cover you in the event you have an accident doing any type of climbing or over-night bushwalking/trekking. I am sure they will simply refuse your claim and then what are you going to do? Make a complaint, go to the financial ombudsmen or take them to court. Just get a policy that you know covers the activities you will be doing or do what lots of us already do and take a bit of a risk and don't have climbing specific insurance when travelling overseas.
AndyJS
11/01/2012
2:58:33 PM
If I took out a "rock climbing" policy, and then hurt myself "rock climbing", I'd say I've got a fair expectation that they'd cover me. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that they wouldn't?

The point of my queries here (and now via email directly to insure4less) is to get them to clarify in writing exactly what type of climbing is and isn't included. Once I know that, and provided I stick to what they say, I'd expect to be covered. Am I missing something?

rodw
11/01/2012
3:03:25 PM
They will always have clauses and as you say andy you just stick to em....

...many a year back I had a policy for travle in the US saying abseiling was covered rock climbing wasn't....we just made a pack that if any injuries we all just say we were abseiling...lucky didn't have to test it.
dalai
Online Now
11/01/2012
3:05:25 PM
On 11/01/2012 AndyJS wrote:
>If I took out a "rock climbing" policy, and then hurt myself "rock climbing",
>I'd say I've got a fair expectation that they'd cover me. I'm not sure
>what gave you the impression that they wouldn't?

Given many people have house insurance and that the insurance companies don't always payout for damage to said houses...

AndyJS
11/01/2012
3:11:37 PM
On 11/01/2012 dalai wrote:
>Given many people have house insurance and that the insurance companies
>don't always payout for damage to said houses...

That's always the risk I guess. All you can do is try to get them to be as explicit as possible with their terms, and then ensure that you stick to them (or agree on a good story that fits their policy once it all hits the fan, heheheeh).

I suppose this raises another question - is it better to get a policy that explicitly rules in dangerous activities and then to stick to their terms, or would it be safer to go for a policy that doesn't explicitly rule OUT climbing and hope that they don't try to get you on a fine print technicality?
bones
11/01/2012
3:19:55 PM
On 11/01/2012 AndyJS wrote:
>is it better to get a policy
>that explicitly rules in dangerous activities and then to stick to their
>terms, or would it be safer to go for a policy that doesn't explicitly
>rule OUT climbing and hope that they don't try to get you on a fine print
>technicality?

I'd say the former, as they always have ambigous catch-all statements they can use to rule out your activity.

e.g. "This policy excludes knitting, surfing, eating sandwiches and any activity of an active nature"
kieranl
11/01/2012
3:21:03 PM
On 11/01/2012 AndyJS wrote:
>On 11/01/2012 dalai wrote:
>
>I suppose this raises another question - is it better to get a policy
>that explicitly rules in dangerous activities and then to stick to their
>terms, or would it be safer to go for a policy that doesn't explicitly
>rule OUT climbing and hope that they don't try to get you on a fine print
>technicality?
If climbing isn't explicitly ruled out you would want to look very carefully at their disclosure rules. They might try to refuse a claim on the basis that you failed to disclose something that materially affected the risk.
jono_1
11/01/2012
9:06:10 PM
On 11/01/2012 AndyJS wrote:
>On 11/01/2012 dalai wrote:
>>Given many people have house insurance and that the insurance companies
>>don't always payout for damage to said houses...
>
>That's always the risk I guess. All you can do is try to get them to be
>as explicit as possible with their terms, and then ensure that you stick
>to them (or agree on a good story that fits their policy once it all hits
>the fan, heheheeh).
>
>I suppose this raises another question - is it better to get a policy
>that explicitly rules in dangerous activities and then to stick to their
>terms, or would it be safer to go for a policy that doesn't explicitly
>rule OUT climbing and hope that they don't try to get you on a fine print
>technicality?

I would go for the policy that specifically covers activities you will be doing so you know you are covered. Of course you will pay a premium but you will get peace of mind, which is what you want when you take out insurance rather than worrying about whether you are going to be covered if you deck out.

Sorry I didn't notice in original post that the insurance was specifically for rock climbing.
So I had a read of the website and it is basically useless for the 99.99999% of sports climbers that don't wear helmets cause they are not cool. And what is a 'approved route'? But it is good to see an insurance company in Australia giving it a go. I notice they also used to offer wedding insurance. Wonder what that is all about? I can't imagine telling my soon to be wife I want to take out wedding insurance just in case I decide to do a runner on the day.
alpinejoy
12/01/2012
7:25:18 AM
I've used insure4less with the alpine plan before. They asked me what kind of climbing I was going to do, I think I said something like easy multi pitch ice climbing and they said that was fine.

Since then I've made a membership with the british branch of the austrian alpine club, which is something like 45 euro and covers all the rescue expenses my regular insurance doesn't. I think there are a few alpine clubs around that have insurance and allow foreigners to join.
AndyJS
12/01/2012
11:15:13 AM
Awesome, they just got back to me:

-----------
Dear Andy thanks for your email.
Multi-pitch climbing is not excluded from our rock climbing cover however multi-stage ascents (i.e. those ascents requiring the climber to progress through a number of bases or camps in order to allow the climber to acclimatise to the altitude as they work their way up the mountainside) would need to be referred to the Underwriter.
We trust this helps explain and look forward to hearing from you again soon.
-----------

Their interpretation is pretty much how I expected it to be, but it's really nice to get it in writing from them. Onwards and upwards!!! :D

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 31
There are 31 messages in this topic.

 

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