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Carrot bolts with knotted sling? Please help

Cockatoo

3-Jan-2012
7:47:29 PM

Today I went climbing with two partners in mount piddington, blue mountains. I am a beginner, have climbed only for 4 months, the other two are more experienced: the leader has been climbing for 2 years and the other one for 3 or more.

The leader picked up a pretty high wall-like route (no cracks or any type of possible trad gear placement) which only had carrot bolts which looked old and some of them rusty. HE claimed that the route looked challenging and fun.

I own a copy of the blue mountains climbing guide where it is very clearly said that for these carrot bolts one must use proper gear: bolt plates. This was also the advice that I received at the local climbing stores in blackheath and katoomba.

The leader had no bolt plates for this route and when I asked how he intended to do it he said he'd use slings knotted around the carrot bolts.... I told him that that did not sound safe at all, but he angrily insisted that he had done something similar elsewhere and that i only thought his idea was bad because being a noob i do not know anything.. He asked me to belay him and I said that I did not feel comfortable with his plan, would not belay him and would prefer him to discuss his plans with the third person, who is experienced-- she was in another wall 100 meters away still packing her gear. I went to her, asked her to come to the route and talk to the leader. She agreed to belay him, so up goes the leader with his plan of tying the slings around the carrot bolts on a route that he does not, nor does he know the grade for.. Turns out that with difficulty he managed to get to the crux where he almost fell. It was very tense, the belayer agreed with this too.

I was freaking out at the perceived lack of consideration of basic safety measures on their part, and when the leader came down a very heated discussion ensued and I decided that these people are being too careless and not following what seems to be common safety measures for the type of climbing and that I would not climb with them anymore in this trip leave the party

Do you think that the idea of using the slings on the carrot bolts was ok or was it as I perceived it, completely stupid?

Was I right in not agreeing to belay the leader? Should the other person have tried to stop the leader?

Thanks

climbingjac

3-Jan-2012
7:59:39 PM

Terrible idea as the guide said. You did absolutely the right thing - point out your concerns. If this person has so little regard for your safety, might be best to find someone else to climb with.

To be clear: yes, you can put a sling on a carrot.... it is generally something you would do if you found yourself caught out. For instance, half way up a climb where you did not expect to find a carrot. In that instance, if there were no other options, you might opt for the sling on the carrot. Personally I'd only do so if the carrot would protect me from a longer fall. If the sling came off and I would this hurt myself or die, I would personally choose to back off the climb. I personally would not choose to sling two carrots in a row with slings. Climbing is a dangerous sport as it is. Why deliberately make it extremo dangerous?

widewetandslippery

3-Jan-2012
8:24:07 PM

For fun?

Cockatoo

3-Jan-2012
8:35:00 PM

Thanks for your responses

Widewerandslippery: yeah- for fun .. there were plenty other 'normal' routes around for which we had the proper gear, but he liked that wall and was adamant about doing it

What do you think?


rodw

3-Jan-2012
9:05:07 PM

He was fine with it, you weren't......his right to do it his way...your right to choose not to belay him.....so don't really see the issue....you were both right as you both made your own choices.

As you get more experienced you will find yourself in many a situation were the technique or gear needed is not optimal but you will choose to take the calculated risk or not... that's just a part of climbing TBH.

Btw the way...whats a "normal' route... I've never seen one of those :)


kuu

3-Jan-2012
9:05:20 PM

On 3/01/2012 c--katoo wrote:
>
>What do you think?

I think I'd be more likely to respond to your question if your profile gave some detail about who you actually are -- the current information is minimal which suggests you're a Troll.

Also, name the climb concerned at Mt Piddington. This could have some bearing on the views regarding the appropriateness, or otherwise, of your 'leaders' decision.


E. Wells

3-Jan-2012
9:39:59 PM

I think its fine, albeit fiddly. If you have some nice soft little dyneema things a clovey or slip knot should be ok? On the same token if you are not comfortable with his decision, your first aid kit, or your mobile reception then you have every right not to participate. Your belaying is just as important as his climbing so I think you made the right choice. (and there is nothing wrong or un-usual about falling of a climb) I live nearby and sometimes take the odd vertical bushwalk and the last thing I need is someone fussing over it. If the leader is at all a friend then maybe a little belated christmas gift of boltplates is appropriate? Your not Queenslanders are yuz?...

widewetandslippery

3-Jan-2012
9:41:52 PM

Miosguided egotistical wanker style fun: I have ashamedly and unashamadley been guiulty of such behaviour. Also some of those old stick outs are prob safer hitched than plated


wallwombat

3-Jan-2012
11:24:07 PM

I reckon there would be more shock absorption with a sling on a carrot ,than using a wire (which is reasonably common practice) .

I have done it before and as long as you use the appropriate hitch (cant remember the name - it's in Freedom of the Hills- but it's ultra simple), then I reckon you will be OK.

But then again I started climbing in the eighties, so you probably shouldn't listen to what I say .


muki

4-Jan-2012
1:29:02 AM

some knots can weaken a sling.
in order of preference:
best practice use a bolt plate with a solid gate biner (not a wire gate biner)
use a sling to keep the bracket in close to the rock if the bolt droops/hangs out too far.
use a wire/nut on the bolt if you don't have a bracket.
use a sling if you have nothing better and want to continue up the climb, but don't just hang it on the bolt, like a coat on a coat rack, fix it in a safe manner that will keep it from slipping off without weakening the sling.
A girth hitch, choke, or larks foot,( all the same hitch) will weaken by up to 20 percent.
I just loop it a few turns around the bolt and clip the sling with a quickdraw, tho this is not my first choice.


deadbudgy

4-Jan-2012
10:26:16 AM

On 4/01/2012 bomber pro wrote:
>some knots can weaken a sling.
>in order of preference:
>best practice use a bolt plate with a solid gate biner (not a wire gate
>biner)
>use a sling to keep the bracket in close to the rock if the bolt droops/hangs
>out too far.
>use a wire/nut on the bolt if you don't have a bracket.
>use a sling if you have nothing better and want to continue up the climb,
>but don't just hang it on the bolt, like a coat on a coat rack, fix it

This is good advice. If the bolt is particularly bad, ie. droopy or sticks out a long way, then a sling can be beneficial as you can hitch it close to the base of the bolt and mini
ise leverage. I agree it is a decision that needs to be made at the time considering all the consequences. Bolt plate + solid straight gate biner is best practice.
>in a safe manner that will keep it from slipping off without weakening
>the sling.
>A girth hitch, choke, or larks foot,( all the same hitch) will weaken
>by up to 20 percent.
>I just loop it a few turns around the bolt and clip the sling with a quickdraw,
>tho this is not my first choice.

Mike Bee

4-Jan-2012
10:27:35 AM

I'm surprised that the leader didn't have better options available to him.
I assume he's climbed in the Bluies before. If so, I would have thought that throwing a handful of bolt plates in was standard practice.

However, maybe he thought "oh, I'm off to Piddo, which is mainly a trad crag" and hence left them behind. In that case, I would have thought he would have had a set of nuts with him (for the trad climbing), which would have been a better option than slings.

Either way, noone died, the belayer did something he thought was right, while the leader did something that satisfied them at some level (increased risk resulting in higher rewards?).

stonetroll

4-Jan-2012
12:01:29 PM

On 3/01/2012 c--katoo wrote:

>
>Do you think that the idea of using the slings on the carrot bolts was
>ok or was it as I perceived it, completely stupid?
>
I think the idea of setting an entire route of carrots with just slings is very stupid ( for the average climber ) to be completely stupid just add clown suit and little hat with a propelor. That will save money having to go to the circus.
But . . . . perhaps this climber was not average. It comes down to a personal judgement call like a lot of what climbing is about really.
I actually get the feeling that this "experinced" guy kind of put it out there to show the new guy how thrilling it is to throw caution to the wind and really risk it. Hay ! That's what climbing all about isn't it !
Sounds like poor personal judgement to me. (a) Showing what not to do.and (b) creating unecessary risks.

>Was I right in not agreeing to belay the leader? Should the other person
>have tried to stop the leader?
>
>Thanks
>
As a begginer i think it's a credit to you for recognising dodgy shit. You will probably come across more of it on your travels. I wouldn't belay in that position. So i think the other person should have declined to belay and suggest getting the route next time with bolt plates.

And remember this, just because someone has climbed for 3 years, don't necessarily mean they are kosher.

Cockatoo

4-Jan-2012
3:14:36 PM

Hi
it was the leader's first time in the blue mountains. He was aware that bolt plates were necessary for the routes with carrot bolts-- as a matter of fact that same morning we drove to blackheath and they bought 1 single plate that they were going to use for a multipitch route the next day.

I think that he just got excited about that route in mt piddo on the spur of the moment and decided to improvise. There were of course many many trad routes available to and untried by us in that area.

He had a full trad rack with him which included nuts.

widewetandslippery

4-Jan-2012
3:46:51 PM

Which route

Cockatoo

4-Jan-2012
4:29:51 PM

it was "sincerity" in flake crack area


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Jan-2012
4:32:24 PM

I am generally with kuu on responding to this.

If it is not a troll, then good on you for making your own call on the situation.
If you are still of that opinion, then wear the consequence and find new climbing partners, as this is better than being personally involved in a potential clean up scenario.

On 4/01/2012 bomber pro wrote:
>some knots can weaken a sling.
>in order of preference:
>best practice use a bolt plate with a solid gate biner (not a wire gate
>biner)
>use a sling to keep the bracket in close to the rock if the bolt droops/hangs
>out too far.
>use a wire/nut on the bolt if you don't have a bracket.
>use a sling if you have nothing better and want to continue up the climb,
>but don't just hang it on the bolt, like a coat on a coat rack, fix it
>in a safe manner that will keep it from slipping off without weakening
>the sling.
>A girth hitch, choke, or larks foot,( all the same hitch) will weaken
>by up to 20 percent.
>I just loop it a few turns around the bolt and clip the sling with a quickdraw,
>tho this is not my first choice.

Welcome back to your original User ID bomber pro, and (this post indicates) the resumption of good posts that have integrity.

Although a girth hitch weakens the strength of the connection, I find those when used on bolts are more secure than the 'slip knot' (overhand knot tied within the sling), style of attachment. Likewise a clove hitched sling is more secure, if there is enough bolt shank to take it.
In that situation I prefer security over strength, and more especially where I consider the pro less than ideal to start with, ie it is better to have some pro / pro stay put, than to not have any pro!

In many years of climbing I may have only ever slinged a bolt without using a bracket on lead while freeclimbing, once or twice, and try to avoid that scenario whenever possible.
I have however, often slung bolts without using brackets while aid climbing, and noted early during this practice that the hero loop slip-knot connections when weighted usually tighten the knot but NOT snug against the shank of the bolt; ... in fact worse still, the tape (or cord), often stretched a little providing an even larger loop to slip off the bolt head in the event of a fall!
This was OK for aid progress, but after a short runout, I'd still be looking for a more secure pro-connection while leading on aid...

widewetandslippery

4-Jan-2012
4:42:32 PM

If you had a rack and dear leader had to prove almightyness on a 10m gr12 sport route, find yourself new Partners. This route could of easiy been top roPed by access from routes on gear. An amazing tale of an amazing Leo Wanker

Cockatoo

4-Jan-2012
5:34:15 PM

Hi Kuu
I'm not a troll- this actually happened yesterday. I created my profile yesterday as well just to ask knowledgeable ppl about my experience.The route in question was
Sincerity in the flake crack area of mt piddington.

Cockatoo

4-Jan-2012
5:46:27 PM

hi by a normal route i meant one for which we had the gear, i.e. a trad route, or a sports route

There are 46 messages in this topic.