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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 53
Author
Sport grades 'higher' than trad?
Wendy
5/11/2011
9:32:33 PM
On 5/11/2011 Olbert wrote:

>>
>It's hard to believe that a three grade difference is because the people
>attempting the sport routes are better climbers. I think it much more
>likely that climbing trad is just dam fcuking hard and placing gear is
>not fully respected in the grade. Otherwise people would attempt to do
>9b's on gear that, when preplaced would be significantly easier.

I think it has something to do with the nature of routes likely to be graded 9b, ie, there aren't many features that would be suited to protecting naturally (if there were more features, it wouldn't be so goddamn hard) and therefore, the hardest routes are likely to be bolted.

Eduardo, gear below my feet is petrifying stuff! And 3 bolts per pitch is a really good reason not to climb slabs!

MrsM10iswhereitsat.
6/11/2011
11:45:12 AM
On 4/11/2011 Mr jezza wrote:
>On average (taken over thousands of climbers), shouldn't it be true
>that most people climb the same on sport and trad, because the grading
>system takes into account the differences between sport and trad? Or is
>it just that my friends and I need to harden up?

You need to harden up dearie.
Mz Wendy makes a fair point, hard sport is less protectable on natural features than hard trad, so bolts are used. The mindset that goes with bolts is that they are safe?

For the average routes I climb, I find that grade for grade, the sport routes are graded soft, ie those who graded them basically did so on difficulty of moves alone, so it is little wonder that if you did the same climb as purely trad then it would be harder when all the other things that the Mr Ewbank Grading System involves, are taken into consideration as well.
This leads me to believe that the new generation sport climbers need to climb more trad, in order to more accurately grade their sport creations.

Cool Hand Lock
6/11/2011
1:04:38 PM
What about carrot bolts, Doc?

Climbing on carrots is harder than fixed hangers, but easier than gear.


Eduardo Slabofvic
6/11/2011
1:17:23 PM
On 6/11/2011 Cool Hand Lock wrote:

>Climbing on carrots is harder than fixed hangers, but easier than gear.


You should try climbing on the rock instead. It can be quite fun.

sliamese
6/11/2011
3:30:26 PM

>It's hard to believe that a three grade difference is because the people
>attempting the sport routes are better climbers. I think it much more
>likely that climbing trad is just dam fcuking hard and placing gear is
>not fully respected in the grade. Otherwise people would attempt to do
>9b's on gear that, when preplaced would be significantly easier.


if theres something that accepts gear, then theres something to grab hold of and yard on. i think finding those super hard trad lines isn't as easy as say a long line of tuffs for 80m across a roof.

generally its a style/commitment thing really. proving again its all just a head game
Bultitude
6/11/2011
5:01:22 PM
at mount alexandra there is a corner i climbed (on sport)last weekend.

Originally it was called "corner from hell". grade 16 trad, first ascent was a free solo, gear on it would be bad. RP's, small nuts, c3's, maybe even a knifeblade if one was so inclined.

Now its bolted, the bolted version even says to take the easiest way to the top.

The bolted climb "corner from heaven" is 18.

So yeh some trad grades may be lower than sport grades.



bel
8/11/2011
12:38:57 PM
my hardest onsite grade wise was hidden secrets (araps 22 ) but pine crack moonarie 19 put the fear of death in me!!! oh my it so so depends where you are!!

Eduardo Slabofvic
8/11/2011
10:36:57 PM
On 5/11/2011 Wendy wrote:
> And 3 bolts per pitch
>is a really good reason not to climb slabs!
>

don't go to Wendenstock then
Wendy
9/11/2011
7:18:19 AM
On 8/11/2011 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>On 5/11/2011 Wendy wrote:
>> And 3 bolts per pitch
>>is a really good reason not to climb slabs!
>>
>
>don't go to Wendenstock then

The gear at Wendenstock is not very wendiferous then?
skegly
9/11/2011
9:33:54 PM
I'm still wondering how to grade a climb or should it be a boulder?
PThomson
15/11/2011
10:55:39 AM
On 5/11/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Sport is scary. Someone else has decided where the gear should go for
>you, and it's rarely in agreement with where I think the gear should go
>(which is usually about every 30cm!).

I seem to recall hearing you say that somewhere before, Wendy. Satanic Majesty at Frog, perhaps? =P

With respect to grades... I accept that pumping out placing gear, and being scared of falling on gear are definately factors... But I also think that most trad climbs seem to be put up by "harder" climbers than you're average sports climber, for whom Excalibur isn't a sandbag at 17 (that would be at least a 19 if it was on bolts).

As Wendy said, I also find that Trad climbing -because of the availability of gear placements, and also what constitutes a climb safe enough for trad- tends to result in less "ladder-esque" movements than your standard sport routes (all the weirdest moves I've ever done have been on trad climbs), which make things FEEL harder than the grade solely because you're not used to doing them (or have an opportunity to practice the move all that often).

These things also -I think- would be a piece of piss to your average "hard man trad climber" (the sort of climber who actually does the off-width start to Infinity) because he (or she) probably HAVE had an opportunity to practice these sorts of weird moves.

**

As others have said here... When I look at going out to lead a trad route (a multipitch in particular), I usually add 2 grades to the official grade of the climb, and then re-evaluate how confident I feel about climbing it.
simey
15/11/2011
12:27:42 PM
On 15/11/2011 Simyaz wrote:
>As others have said here... When I look at going out to lead a trad route (a multipitch in particular), I usually add 2 grades to the official grade of the climb, and then re-evaluate how confident I feel about climbing it.

That's not a bad approach to things.

dave h.
15/11/2011
1:34:41 PM
Speaking of specific climbs, did anyone else get the poop scared out of them on The Gentle Art of Lyre-Bird Mugging, at Buffalo?

It may actually be quite safe. I can't really recall how far it was between the last good piece and the bolt, it felt a long way at the time. But I was very uncomfortable on the slab moves that lead to the bolt.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/07/2012
12:37:21 PM
On 15/11/2011 dave h. wrote:
>Speaking of specific climbs, did anyone else get the poop scared out of
>them on The Gentle Art of Lyre-Bird Mugging, at Buffalo?
>
The climb name obviously didn't set your sandbag detector buzzing! ... ~> though it should have as (if I recall correctly), Peter Watling was one of the first ascentionists of that route; and most things at Buffalo with his name attached from days of yore are considered 'old school' (read hard for the grade), by todays gym expats!
;-)
citationx
18/07/2012
1:08:13 PM
On 18/07/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 15/11/2011 dave h. wrote:
>>Speaking of specific climbs, did anyone else get the poop scared out
>of
>>them on The Gentle Art of Lyre-Bird Mugging, at Buffalo?
>>
>The climb name obviously didn't set your sandbag detector buzzing! ...
>~> though it should have as (if I recall correctly), Peter Watling was
>one of the first ascentionists of that route; and most things at Buffalo
>with his name attached from days of yore are considered 'old school' (read
>hard for the grade), by todays gym expats!
>;-)

Good to see this is the case. and dave, i completely agree, extremely scary! In fact, there's a funny story (in hindsight) that i'd rather not recall in too much detail about reverse-aiding the route in rain and freezing wind while the gf at the time lost feeling in her fingers, toes and every other bit of skin exposed to the air because I didn't want to do the crack-to-slab move (as mentioned, i'm using the rain as my excuse *cough*).
The last piece i recall having was two lobes of a green alien touching the outward flaring crack about 30cm before it petered out into nothing...
ARidgley
18/07/2012
5:00:21 PM
Good thread.

I agree with a lot of what others have said. A well protected trad route is much less scary that a sport route because protection can be above your head and it's generally not as steep so you can take your time.

To me, what sets the two apart is that on a sport route (or any bolted route) you KNOW where the next piece is. There's always a small incremental objective that draws you on. On trad you typically just don't know. Arapiles is a classic example. You can see steep ground ahead and have no idea where the next piece is. This generally invites procrastination (the best part of climbing), mindworms and unnecessary pump. You don't get drawn on, you need to push on. To me, that's the one big difference.

And the weight of my oversized security blanket of a rack.

muki
19/07/2012
10:18:53 AM
What I love about climbing is that every climb is different and every climber climbs differently, some bolted climbs have scared me to the point where I start talking myself through the trauma, others are follow the dots, some trad climbs have left mental scars, where others are fond memories, I, like others, climb both trad and sport to an equal level, but not all climbs are equal in there grading, I agree with those that have said that some sport climbs are graded softer than trad climbs, this is a direct affect of those grading for the pump of lugging a rack and placing the gear, as it should, those that are confident & quick at placing wiggly stuff sometimes forget this in there subsequent grading of the climb, and those that follow in the FA's footsteps to verify the grade might be the same.
Ultimately, the head game is something that you can't accurately allow for in the grading of a climb, it's so subjective, and affects everyone so differently e.g. those that have stated that unless the gear is above their heads its not a comfortable experience !

nmonteith
19/07/2012
11:17:50 AM
I think it mostly boils down to experience and expertise. Trad climbing requires a fair bit more technical know how and strategy than the average sport route. You can't teach the basics of trad climbing to someone in a day. It takes years of experience to understand how to utilize the rock for natural protection - and to be confident enough not to crap your pants going above your gear. The very best trad climbers launch themselves up long hard pitches with a handful of gear as they are 100% confident in their ability to place it. If climbers these days focused their energy on getting good at trad climbing (placing gear AND jamming) then they would probably find the grades kind of equalize to normality. I know these days I climb probably 80% sport, so my trad 'experience is reduced, and thus I am climbing at least a couple of grades lower on trad routes. But in the past when I did a lot more trad I was climbing about the same grade on sport and trad.

If you want to get better at trad then climb trad.

muki
19/07/2012
11:59:48 AM
On 19/07/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>I know these days
>I climb probably 80% sport, so my trad 'experience is reduced, and thus
>I am climbing at least a couple of grades lower on trad routes. But in
>the past when I did a lot more trad I was climbing about the same grade
>on sport and trad.

maybe experience is the wrong word,once learned a thing is not so easily forgotten in my opinion, but endurance is another thing, it can leave you if not regularly exercised.

>If you want to get better at trad then climb trad.

this would exercise your stamina and endurance, as well as your ability to make speedy but safe decisions on gear placement.
uwhp510
19/07/2012
12:01:43 PM
Old school trad routes that people say are stiff, are in fact spot on, because they came first meaning that they set the benchmarks. The modern, moderate sport routes that most people seem to spend most of their time climbing these days, that are easier at the grade are therefore soft.

If for whatever reason, you aspire to being able to climb grade X, then go seek out the proudest test pieces, not the grotty, sh1tty little boulder problems off the ground with easy climbing above type routes...

Also, don't get on Orrestes and then say you can climb 24 on gear (I'd give it 19... maybe 21 if I was feeling generous ;)

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 53
There are 53 messages in this topic.

 

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