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lead vs second grade gap

PDRM

24-Jun-2011
9:50:44 AM

Just reading another post suggesting some people there were leading mid teens but top roping early/mid 20's. This seems like a big gap to me. What is it for most others? A few grades or nearly 10 as in this instance?

Paul

citationx

24-Jun-2011
10:15:23 AM

You can attempt to toprope any grade, in reality. Whether you make it up is another thing. Whether you snap your tendons or not in the process is also another matter.

I like to think I was relatively realistic. I wouldn't really try anything more than 1 or 2 grades over my lead limit. Why bother? That just seems vain to me, you're not realistically going to get it above that, and if so then it doesn't prove you climb that hard, just that you "got lucky" with a style that suited you or it was a "soft tick".

At my prime (long gone now) I'd only attempted around 3 26s on lead (or top-rope (i rarely toproped, in general) getting none), hardest lead 25 but onsighted plenty of 24s and lower. Who knows, perhaps I should've spent more time attempting 26s, perhaps the one straining move that I managed to learn how to do would give me an edge on the other 25s i had tried...


StuckNut

24-Jun-2011
10:17:00 AM

I believe the other post was referring to trad leading and top roping. I'll have a go at anything on top rope but will only lead trad well within my comfort zone at the moment.


Sabu

24-Jun-2011
11:05:48 AM

To answer your question: fear. I think many people have (and rightfully so) a fear of falling, which limits their willingness to jump on hard routes which if they failed at would result in a fall that may or may not be nasty (who wants to find out right?!). This is completely normal and I think it is more pronounced in some and less pronounced in others for many reasons.

I think this is primarily the case with trad leading given trad is a completely different dimension in terms of pushing grades. For me I'm very happy to jump onto a hard sport route or top rope something for the pure fun of playing on it. However I approach trad with a completely different mindset; finishing the climbing safely. Therefore I consider a lot more factors before jumping on the sharp end and this results in a reduction of the grades i'm happy to attempt. For me when I'm climbing strong I think the difference is about 1-2 grades but seeing as i primarily lead i often never find out my limit.


Eduardo Slabofvic

24-Jun-2011
11:15:17 AM

If we are comparing leading trad to top roping, then by top roping you're removing the stamina required to hang around and place gear so that should mean more oomph to pull with. It also removes the "Oh sh1t, those last three pieces were crap, if I come off now I'm dead" thoughts, so it should put you in a better frame of mind, which should relate to better performance. I find I can top rope 2 grades harder than trad lead.

If we are comparing sport leading to top roping, I actually find leading better (assuming I have a trust worthy belayer) as I hate having the rope in front of my face, I like the freedom of having the rope below me. There's no hanging around fiddling in gear, and for the most part (depending on which numpty has bolted the route) there will be multiple over engineered bolts between you and any solid object, and if I'm feeling good on the day taking little lobs can be kind of fun. I sport climb as well as I top rope.

I find the top rope does not provide any magical improvement in ability, I can only climb as well as I can climb - no more.

undercling mike

24-Jun-2011
12:20:03 PM

I think sometimes I have a reverse lead - toprope grade gap. I've fallen off a few things seconding or toproping that I previously onsighted. For example one time I onsighted The Rack, found it a bit strenuous and since it was set up for top roping I thought I'd give it another lap and popped off. I followed this up by managing to onsight Christian Crack (just).

I guess it's just a lack of concentration when seconding or toproping sometimes combined with having done the climb before and hence thinking it won't be too much trouble. Anyone else have this issue?


StuckNut

24-Jun-2011
12:35:06 PM

On 24/06/2011 undercling mike wrote:
>I guess it's just a lack of concentration when seconding or toproping
>sometimes combined with having done the climb before and hence thinking
>it won't be too much trouble. Anyone else have this issue?

I've noticed this this to a certain extent.

When I'm leading(trad) I spend a lot more time at comfortable stances looking ahead and planning moves and gear placements, where as on top rope I'm more likely to just head blindly upwards, then find myself having to attempt moves that aren't quite optimal because I've found myself out of position.

ClimbingNT

24-Jun-2011
1:25:51 PM

I find that top roping imo requires less thought processes throughout the climb. It’s pretty much a matter of making it from move to move (which can catch you out and put you in positions where the next move is a little dubious).
Lead climbing, especially on trad requires a lot more thought process. I find you read the climb a lot more. Find places to rest and keep your head in the game throughout the entire climb.
You also climb more steady, make sure you don’t get pumped too soon, rest more often, etc.
With top roping, if you get pumped its not the end of the world. You can just let go, rest, then keep on going….

rightarmbad

24-Jun-2011
8:46:16 PM

I climb like shit on second or toproping.
I simply do not get into it and focus.

I've lead trad at least 3 grades harder than anything I have ever followed or toproped.
It is pretty rare for me to top rope though,
I just don't get, lead or top rope?
I know which gives me the most satisfaction, why bother going to the trouble of setting up a toprope?

HumphreyG

24-Jun-2011
9:54:23 PM

I definitely agree with the 'leap into it' approach with top roping but I (generally) won't bother with it - I feel like I'm cheating. There's some thing about leading a climb that you get to a certain point and you think "f#ck it, I'm so far past my lasty piece of gear I can either let go now (and just give up like a sport climber - ha ha ) or I can carry on and see how far i get before i really fall off". Thats the addiction of trad isnt it?? Sport you can just plop off any time - just like a gym.

I would like to point out that as a mid to high teens grade climber I'm probably not pushing the grade like some of you but, hey, its all relative yeah? At my level I don't really see any excuse with it being a trad climb as the protection you should be putting in should be completely bomber anyway at this level.


shortman

24-Jun-2011
9:59:58 PM

On 24/06/2011 rightarmbad wrote:
>I climb like shit on second or toproping.
>I simply do not get into it and focus.
>
>I've lead trad at least 3 grades harder than anything I have ever followed
>or toproped.
>It is pretty rare for me to top rope though,
>I just don't get, lead or top rope?
>I know which gives me the most satisfaction, why bother going to the trouble
>of setting up a toprope?

It's not a question of lead vs top rope at all. Setting up a top rope aint much harder than setting up a belay for a start. Chuck in 3-6 bits of trad, equalize some static, spend an extra 5 seconds putting on some rope protectors, throw your rope over the edge, rap down and climb.

Personally I prefer to lead as well. However, I've been climbing since November, started leading a couple of months ago, happy up to 14 or so depending on the style, but not yet ready to start pushin it. So when I've run around leading all the easy short sh#t and maybe try say a grade 15 or 16 and push myself a grade higher than ever b4, I'm more than happy to top rope a few harder climbs at the end of the day and find out if I can get up 'em. I've hung my way up grade 18's and climbined some low 20's clean on top rope. (I havn't climbed enough to know whats going on yet!) But would I start leading these grades yet? No friggin way. And I just don't think I'm gonna get better at climbing hanging around on sub 15's. I know I'm only new at this climbin gig, but I think I'll always top rope stuff that is at my limit or just beyond me. And this is probably more to do with the fact that I'm drawn to the physical aspects of actually climbing as opposed to all the ropes and sh#t, and callin myself a climber.
>

rightarmbad

24-Jun-2011
11:36:30 PM

That is a common thought process when you start.
Why bother leading when somebody else can do the dangerous stuff and I get to play on some hard things.
It's all about the movement right?

Wrong, it's about the total experience and you will come to realise it eventually.
There is a immense satisfaction in finding a line, climbing it, arguing with all the little voices inside and conquering them to get to the top.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

25-Jun-2011
12:48:49 AM

On 24/06/2011 PDRM wrote:
>lead vs second grade gap

There is a lengthy earlier thread dealing with this same topic.
I would link this post to it but my computers search function doesn't seem to be working too well at the moment. ~> You might have better luck?

>Just reading another post suggesting some people there were leading mid
>teens but top roping early/mid 20's. This seems like a big gap to me. What
>is it for most others? A few grades or nearly 10 as in this instance?
>
& ES wrote;
>I find the top rope does not provide any magical improvement in ability, I can only climb as well as I can climb - no more.

The gap for me mostly isn't much different between lead (both trad & sport), and toprope or seconding; ... but then again, I climb like an old blouse so this doesn't surprise me! ;-)

I do however feel a different type of mental comfort when seconding/toproping. I would not call it better, only more appropriate sometimes (depending on my mood/psyche), as there are other times when I crave the 'edge' that hard (for me), leading provides.


arniearms

25-Jun-2011
8:27:52 AM

As a new south welshman, ive grown up climbing on bolts (scary carrots and shiny rings) back in 1990. Ive only recently warmed to trad after going to arraps 5 years ago, and try to get down for a yearly visit. Sport im breaking thru the 25 barrier, but trad ground up im only comfortable upto 20. But ive dog/aided up a 23 and redpointed on gear, and toproped 25 with gear pre placed (in hope of redpoint). I always just try to have fun, and njoi the xperience... :)


shortman

25-Jun-2011
10:08:57 PM

On 24/06/2011 rightarmbad wrote:
>That is a common thought process when you start.
>Why bother leading when somebody else can do the dangerous stuff and I
>get to play on some hard things.
>It's all about the movement right?
>
>Wrong, it's about the total experience and you will come to realise it
>eventually.
>There is a immense satisfaction in finding a line, climbing it, arguing
>with all the little voices inside and conquering them to get to the top.

Your so far off the money, its like me callin you leftleggood and thinkin I've got you all figured out. Heed your own advice, and allow your self to enjoy the whole experience of top roping.

Look at it like this. Top roping is like having a sh*t and leading is like having a root. Both are still an enjoyable experience. Of course leading is better and and a more total experience. Just like rooting. You can't compare the two.

And i don't need to climb to conquer little voices. Are you an old fella by any chance?


ChuckNorris

25-Jun-2011
11:05:10 PM

On 25/06/2011 shortman wrote:
>On 24/06/2011 rightarmbad wrote:
>>That is a common thought process when you start.
>>Why bother leading when somebody else can do the dangerous stuff and
>I
>>get to play on some hard things.
>>It's all about the movement right?
>>
>>Wrong, it's about the total experience and you will come to realise it
>>eventually.
>>There is a immense satisfaction in finding a line, climbing it, arguing
>>with all the little voices inside and conquering them to get to the top.
>
>Your so far off the money, its like me callin you leftleggood and thinkin
>I've got you all figured out. Heed your own advice, and allow your self
>to enjoy the whole experience of top roping.
>
>Look at it like this. Top roping is like having a sh*t and leading is
>like having a root. Both are still an enjoyable experience. Of course leading
>is better and and a more total experience. Just like rooting.
>
>And i don't need to climb to conquer little voices. Are you an old fella
>by any chance?
>
>

You are the man shorty - you saved me the bother of replying.


StuckNut

26-Jun-2011
10:12:54 AM

On 25/06/2011 shortman wrote:

>Look at it like this. Top roping is like having a sh*t and leading is
>like having a root. Both are still an enjoyable experience. Of course leading
>is better and and a more total experience. Just like rooting. You can't
>compare the two.

I was leading and shitting yesterday - missed out on the root and the top roping though. Hows that work?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Jun-2011
11:07:30 AM

... a portaledge can help in contrived bondage ascents.
;-)


miguel75

26-Jun-2011
11:21:50 AM

On 26/06/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>... a portaledge can help in contrived bondage ascents.
>;-)

Climbing in one of those leather masks would be hot work though the red ball gag would be a lot tougher... I imagine!


StuckNut

26-Jun-2011
11:48:05 AM

On 26/06/2011 miguel75 wrote:
>Climbing in one of those leather masks would be hot work though the red
>ball gag would be a lot tougher... I imagine!
>

I dunno.. a stealth rubber mask could come in handy in some thrutchy offwidths?

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