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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 65
Author
$11,000 fine for building a cairn

nmonteith
13/06/2011
7:34:47 PM
This is a new sign that has appeared at the top of Tianjara Falls climbing area at New Nowra. It should be noted that there are probably hundreds of rock cairns marking access routes to the numerous climbing crags - all created before the sign was put up!



I reckon this fine is ridiculous. There is bizillions of flat rocks for the snakes - a few moved around once every few years won't cause a disaster. Having walked around the whole area extensively I've seen the same looking flat rocks everywhere. I can't imagine that the snakes at this particular cliff are the only ones in this vast area - I suspect that the reason the rangers know about these ones is that it's minutes from the carpark.

nmonteith
13/06/2011
7:35:24 PM
p.s. there is no shortage of snakes at this cliff either! I stepped on one this morning - an activity which for some reason doesn't cop an $11,000 fine.

Miguel75
13/06/2011
7:46:04 PM
Would a cairn made out of excess snakes attract the fine?

Eduardo Slabofvic
13/06/2011
8:28:30 PM
How big are the rocks in the cairns? X How many rocks are in each cairn? X How many cairns are there? = area of habitat destruction.

Bloody Australian wildlife. They've had it too good too long.

nmonteith
13/06/2011
8:36:33 PM
On 13/06/2011 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>How big are the rocks in the cairns? X How many rocks are in each cairn?
>X How many cairns are there? = area of habitat destruction.
>
>Bloody Australian wildlife. They've had it too good too long.

Most of the cairns are tiny - usually two or three hand sized blocks. The top of this cliff is covered in thousands of flat blocks. You don't have to hunt around to find a few to make a cairn.
dcarson
13/06/2011
8:40:03 PM
Maybe building a cairn creates a more suitable niche for the snakes to inhabit than individual rocks strewn around a wider area?

You could argue that cairn builders are volunteer conservation biologists...


nmonteith
13/06/2011
9:02:48 PM
Do you reckon they really could fine you that amount and imprison you for making cairns? What size cairn would you need to build to cop the maximum? Surely a judge would throw out this sort of charge when faced with the facts. It should be pointed out that not 100m from this sign is a brand new 40km section of bitumen highway that tripled the old dirt road size. Did they pay the fine for moving thousands of tonnes of rocks?
martym
13/06/2011
9:03:57 PM
BYO rocks from the "non-protected" side of the sign? or is that littering?

shortman
13/06/2011
9:08:17 PM
You sure someone who works in printing isn't takin the piss.

11,000 dollars!

Looks like the work of a Banksy clone.

shiltz
13/06/2011
9:10:20 PM
Cairns actually create nice snake habitats.

Doug
Online Now
13/06/2011
9:15:51 PM
On 13/06/2011 shortman wrote:
>11,000 dollars!

Not to mention the six months in prison. Sheesh! Parks Victoria, eh? Get a grip!

cruze
13/06/2011
9:22:54 PM
It doesn't matter what the penalty is if you do what the man tells you. They look like cute critters after all:

http://www.threatenedspecies.environment.nsw.gov.au/tsprofile/profile.aspx?id=10413

Tape?

shortman
13/06/2011
9:49:18 PM
On 13/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>Do you reckon they really could fine you that amount and imprison you for
>making cairns? What size cairn would you need to build to cop the maximum?
>Surely a judge would throw out this sort of charge when faced with the
>facts. It should be pointed out that not 100m from this sign is a brand
>new 40km section of bitumen highway that tripled the old dirt road size.
>Did they pay the fine for moving thousands of tonnes of rocks?

I think at worst they would give you a slap on the wrist. Everything about it seems excessive.
I wonder how they are policing it?

Cameras under rocks?

stugang
13/06/2011
9:50:49 PM
Its those bloody Nati do-gooders again.
TonyB
14/06/2011
7:15:49 AM
Public service wankers.

rodw
Online Now
14/06/2011
7:28:57 AM
Broad headed snakes habitat is crevasses' with rock on rock i.e not rock over dirt/ ground etc....your more likely to find them halfway up a cliff than under a rock sitting on the ground....so in saying that if you take a pile of rocks and build up a cairn you are actually providing more habitat for the snake as then they can have there rock on rock to slither into.

Whoever come up with the sign obviously dosnt know much about the snake in question.

Also I would have thought keeping peeps to a single track ie purpose of cairns as track markers....would be better anyway?

kuu
14/06/2011
9:00:57 AM
On 14/06/2011 TonyB wrote:
>Public service wankers.

Ah, a well-considered thoughtful contribution ;-)

Guys it might be a good idea to take some of the angst out of this discussion. The area being discussed here is a known habitat for the Broad-headed Snake and current legislation relating to Threatened/Endangered/Vulnerable species provides for the restriction of access to escarpment areas if deemed necessary.

Most NPWS personnel are just as passionate about their work as any of us on this forum but if confronted by recalcitrant, anarchistic behaviour they may be tempted to invoke the full force of the law (and remember it's on their side!).

Climbers already have a shaky image in the minds of a few NPWS bods but we can go some way to modifying that view by a sensible response to this situation. In the eyes of protected area managers moving bits of rock around (for whatever purpose) is akin to the removal of 'garden rock'.

Let's explore ways to reduce our footprint and work with the environment rather than be locked out.




Superstu
14/06/2011
9:21:50 AM
The broad headed snake is

* Nocturnal.
* Shelters in rock crevices and under flat sandstone rocks on exposed cliff edges during autumn, winter and spring.
* Moves from the sandstone rocks to shelters in hollows in large trees within 200 m of escarpments in summer.

The area you're building tracks to the cliffs is probably prime habitat. As it's nocturnal you're unlikely to notice its presence.

As for the road? Sealing the road may increase mortality. Parks probably had no say in it. The newly sealed road is contra to one of the recommended species recovery strategies.

As for the fine? Well, if they put up a sign with 'pretty please don't move the rocks' are they likely to get any change in behavior at all, considering the various rants on this forum over any regulation in a park that somehow intrudes on their goddamn right to climb camp burn wood shit behind a bush?

My guess the bigger concern is the removal of rocks for suburban gardens. I've seen it being done a bit over the years. Perhaps the big fine is there for the possibility someone is removing stones for urban landscaping on a commercial scale, in which case you would want to be able to throw the book at them. It would be pretty shit if all you could do is give them a $25 fine and told not to do it again.

It's depressing that climbers have such a poor relationship with Parks NSW. Climbers generally seem completely uninterested in broader ecological issues and stubbornly reluctant to accept they have an impact on significant ecosystems worthy of preservation. It would seem the ideal situation from most NSW climber's perspectives if we ended up like Europe, where every bit of nature has been totally trashed, every mountain has a kiosk on the top, every forest is a plantation and every stream polluted. As Sydney's population continues to increase its only a matter of time until we end up like that. Is Parks NSW so bad that they should be disbanded and everyone and their dog should have a free reign to do as they wish with the remaining bushland? How quickly would everywhere get trashed!? You've only got to visit national parks in other countries to appreciate how lucky we are to have such pristine environments right next to our cities. And thank god we've got Parks - the alternative is every scrap of green is bulldozed and carpeted with McMansions - that would be fuched.

Here's a different vision of the future. Climbers working with Parks on impact issues. Climbers taking an interest in the environment that they climb in, and developing and appreciation of the uniqueness of the landscape beyond simply a cool backdrop for their latest chockstone pic of the week. Discussion groups involving climbers, Parks people and whoever working together to find solutions to problems. Voluntary behaviour changes without fine or regulation. Working bees where climbers and Parks work side by side on track care or snake habitat preservation or whatever.

I don't understand why there is no dialogue between Parks NSW and climbers. Has it always been that way? The situation seems different in Victoria, why is that? And why are there such piss poor turnouts to the Blue Mts Track Care days? Can't people see the connection between proactive engagement with land managers and better access results?


widewetandslippery
14/06/2011
9:50:52 AM
One good thing is climbing is not metioned on the sign. If it was it would be a real worry.

I am of the understanding that in the past individual rangers have mentioned cairns to individual climbers. The steps and cairns were (again to my knowledge, this is not gospel) were placed quite a while ago. My guess Mr Ranger likes his snakes and quite a while ago asked for a sign saying no cairns. A few years down the track its finally been approved, delivered and installed. Mr Ranger knows he can't directly speak to all climbers and his big threatening sign is his way of comunicating. He has also probably fulfilled some sort of KPI that leads to revenue raising.

One of the photos on the link above looks very much like the top of tiangara. Its a lookout and of all the places if I was going to rip off bush rock in the area it would not be it. I think the sign is directed at climbers cairns.

nmonteith
14/06/2011
9:54:26 AM
On 14/06/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>One of the photos on the link above looks very much like the top of tiangara.
>Its a lookout and of all the places if I was going to rip off bush rock
>in the area it would not be it. I think the sign is directed at climbers
>cairns.

The sign is 100% directed at climbers and their cairns. The sign is located about 20m on the wrong side of the tourist fence behind some trees, and not visible to the average tourist going to the lookout. There is no mention of bush rock removal.

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 65
There are 65 messages in this topic.

 

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