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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 168
Author
Bolting in the Warrumbungles

stugang
2/06/2011
9:55:45 PM
Kuu - thanks for your humble perspective. Despite what I say below I do
think that the opinion of the FA holds slightly more weight than the
marketplace - though not from the concept the they 'own' the f'ng lump of
rock but cos there is a better chance that they care and understand the
context of 'their' route than the average trigger happy champion of doing
something for the climbing community.

Winston - I guess you'd help with the chopping if a mighty conqueror of a
bolted classic climb decided in their maturing years that the bolts were
not needed.

Mikl - love your work but don't you think you may be over compensating a
wee bit by giving an open slather to retroing all 'your' old routes. Just cos you did some of the shittest bolting in history doesn't mean they were all shit routes in their original shape.
Dr Nick
2/06/2011
11:37:43 PM
On 2/06/2011 useful wrote:

>Mikl - love your work but don't you think you may be over compensating
>a wee bit by giving an open slather to retroing all 'your' old routes. Just
>cos you did some of the shittest bolting in history doesn't mean they were
>all shit routes in their original shape.

There's a big difference between a talented tight-arse teenager with a hand drill who is quite happy to run it out rather than stopping to drill, and a sane and sensible climber. There's still a place for run outs, but equally there's a place for deciding that it'd probably be a much nicer climb if you didn't need to carry a spare pair of undies, particularly if it's purely bolt protected anyway.
wm
3/06/2011
8:38:45 AM
The stampede to dismiss king335 on the side issue of HOW he delivered the message is starkly juxtaposed with the deafening silence on the real issue: whether retrobolting in this area should be happening.

Do people really think the bungles should be consumerised? I disagree with the recent retrobolting, I've always seen it as an adventurous area and would like it to stay that way.

kuu
3/06/2011
8:41:33 AM
On 2/06/2011 useful wrote:
>Kuu - thanks for your humble perspective. Despite what I say below I do
>think that the opinion of the FA holds slightly more weight than the
>marketplace - though not from the concept the they 'own' the f'ng lump
>of rock but cos there is a better chance that they care and understand the
>context of 'their' route than the average trigger happy champion of doing
>something for the climbing community.
>
Thanks, I was not attempting to appear humble, I was just being realistic.

The FA may well hold an OPINION about the retro-bolting of one of 'their' routes but this doesn't necessarily influence what happens on the rock in the 'real world'.

At one point in time there were 13 retro-placed bolts on "Hocus Pocus" (Mt Piddington) -- there may be more or less at the moment -- but at no stage were the FAs 'consulted' prior to those bolts being installed. In 1985, on the 21st anniversary of the first ascent, the original party returned and climbed the route in original style (bottom to top without clipping bolts) and may consider a repeat appearance for the 50th anniversary. ;-) ;-)

At the risk of 'overcompensating' I would like to follow Mikl's lead and declare here publicly that I'm happy for every bolt I've ever installed to be replaced by modern stainless steel infrastructure.

Andrew_M
3/06/2011
9:02:23 AM
On 3/06/2011 wm wrote:
>The stampede to dismiss king335 on the side issue of HOW he delivered the message

He's not doing the discussion any favours by his attitude. I more or less agree with most of his sentiments but have a huge urge to slap him around the ears with a wet fish.

>Do people really think the bungles should be consumerised? I disagree with the recent retrobolting, I've always seen it as an adventurous area and would like it to stay that way.

Mikl's done a huge amount of good with his bolting in general - all the rebolting around Sydney and all the irnmongery he's put in at Pierce's pass are sh!t loads of fun to clip, but the bungles are just different. The main reason to go there is to have yourself an adventure where you have to rely on your own skills. Even if the bolts were just for bailing, half the appeal is that the routes have a certain level of committment because retreat is not automatically easy.

nmonteith
3/06/2011
11:32:11 AM
On 3/06/2011 wm wrote:
>The stampede to dismiss king335 on the side issue of HOW he delivered the
>message

Interesting to note that he obviously isn't into entering into a discussion on his actions. One late night decree and deafening silence since.
widewetandslippery
3/06/2011
12:20:16 PM
On 3/06/2011 Andrew_M wrote:
>
>He's not doing the discussion any favours by his attitude. I more or less
>agree with most of his sentiments but have a huge urge to slap him around
>the ears with a wet fish.
>

+1
mikllaw
3/06/2011
12:39:52 PM
Obviously these are questions of taste rather than fact, here are some reasons for replacing 4 poor anchors:-

Old tatt is messy and rapidly becomes untrustworthy; this is why I replaced a number of slings on the abseil point at the end of pitch 2 of Flight of the Phoenix with a doubled length of 10 mm rope threaded inside 1” tape to reduce UV damage (though a swaged stainless sling or bolt would be a more permanent solution).

If you have to retreat from Cornerstone Rib, you can rap it easily (though you would have to abandon a lot of gear) except for 2 places where anchors are at the back of large ledges. The solution used by various parties appeared to be leaving lengths of rope to get the abseil over the edge. This rapidly weathers and becomes untrustworthy. I think a single bolt is less of a mess than 10m of fraying rope. John may be able to post a photo of the pile of tatt removed on the trip.

The 1st abseil anchor on Cornerstone Rib doesn’t replace a belay. The second is on the same ledge as a belay and, depending where you set your belay, can be used as part of the anchor.

The abseil anchor near Lieben is 6m right of the route and (once again) isn’t a belay but replaces a well used abseil anchor that was a nest of rusty wires and a piton tied up with tatt. Rusted wires and pitons are variable in strength and can’t be assessed well. I don’t see any point in leaving them.

Doing ground up new routes can work well (for instance on Bluff Mountain or at Araps), but on the shattered rock at Crater Bluff you just end up with another poxy wander like Lieben “direct start”. The new route lost most of the loose holds and is now excellent climbing. It does get within 6m of the “direct start” at one point, before that route traverse most of the way back right into Lieben. King 335, I suggest you repeat it.




Andrew_M
3/06/2011
1:12:31 PM
On 3/06/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>Obviously these are questions of taste rather than fact, here are some reasons for replacing 4 poor anchors:-

Devils advocate: why not just completely pull the crap fixed gear/tat? Then people can build their own anchor and work out if they trust it or not.


GoUp!
3/06/2011
1:31:14 PM
>'Obviously these are questions of taste.....'

It seems to me that there are quite a lot of people around with the taste that the 'Bungles should be left wild rather than retro-ed.

citationx
3/06/2011
1:43:24 PM
On 3/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>On 3/06/2011 wm wrote:
>>The stampede to dismiss king335 on the side issue of HOW he delivered
>the
>>message
>
>Interesting to note that he obviously isn't into entering into a discussion
>on his actions. One late night decree and deafening silence since.

Yes, has anyone actually confirmed he did this?

nmonteith
3/06/2011
1:56:28 PM
On 3/06/2011 citationx wrote:
>Yes, has anyone actually confirmed he did this?

It's not a troll. I've received one email from him shortly after his post here.

stugang
3/06/2011
9:42:04 PM
Kuu - I was only talking about adding additional bolts to existing climbs. All I'm saying in these cases there is more to it than the opinion or "permission" of the FA.

When it comes to replacing of old crap ironmongery my personal opinion is that it should be replaced. Incidentally it pisses me off when old fart FA's stand in the way of this.

I mentioned mikl because from conversations I've had with some people there is the impression that "permission" for both the former and latter has been "given" to all and sundry.

I don't know what mikl has actually said, but if he only intended only the latter - I applaud him. However, if he also meant the former then I think its a slippery slope and would urge him to reconsider.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3/06/2011
9:53:39 PM
On 3/06/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>Obviously these are questions of taste rather than fact, here are some
>reasons for replacing 4 poor anchors:-
>
>Old tatt is messy and rapidly becomes untrustworthy; this is why I replaced
>a number of slings on the abseil point at the end of pitch 2 of Flight
>of the Phoenix with a doubled length of 10 mm rope threaded inside 1” tape
>to reduce UV damage (though a swaged stainless sling or bolt would be a
>more permanent solution).

Yes, old tatt is messy and rapidly becomes untrustworthy.
The fact that this is so, is why people add tatt to an anchor rather than relying on that which may be there. If they were not so lazy, and removed a piece (or more), when they add their own, then that problem would be reduced.
Whacking in a bolt/U/whatever, will only become the anchor of convenience to leave tatt on!

>
>If you have to retreat from Cornerstone Rib, you can rap it easily (though
>you would have to abandon a lot of gear) except for 2 places where anchors
>are at the back of large ledges. The solution used by various parties appeared
>to be leaving lengths of rope to get the abseil over the edge. This rapidly
>weathers and becomes untrustworthy. I think a single bolt is less of a
>mess than 10m of fraying rope. John may be able to post a photo of the
>pile of tatt removed on the trip.

50 years of bumblies getting off it safely would indicate that these are the lengths to which they are prepared to go, to do so.
A photo of the tatt/rope won't thrill me any more than a photo of the bolt anchor that has now been removed.


>
>The 1st abseil anchor on Cornerstone Rib doesn’t replace a belay. The
>second is on the same ledge as a belay and, depending where you set your
>belay, can be used as part of the anchor.
>
This is dumbing down the Warrumbungles experience.

>The abseil anchor near Lieben is 6m right of the route and (once again)
>isn’t a belay but replaces a well used abseil anchor that was a nest of
>rusty wires and a piton tied up with tatt. Rusted wires and pitons are
>variable in strength and can’t be assessed well. I don’t see any point
>in leaving them.
>
Fine, then why not simply remove them, as Andrew M pointed out?


>Doing ground up new routes can work well (for instance on Bluff Mountain
>or at Araps), but on the shattered rock at Crater Bluff you just end up
>with another poxy wander like Lieben “direct start”. The new route lost
>most of the loose holds and is now excellent climbing. It does get within
>6m of the “direct start” at one point, before that route traverse most
>of the way back right into Lieben. King 335, I suggest you repeat it.
>
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the rock on Bluff Mtn is generally better than Crater Bluff? I would suggest it largely depends on which route you choose, but either way it is a moot point.
You are throwing red-herrings our way by suggesting this, and it deviates from the actions you have taken; likewise by describing new routes/variations, is beside the point to what you have done.

Your contribution to Australian climbing is legendary and well beyond dispute.
I respect you for this.
If you had done a general concensus check, before taking the action you have done, you may well have reconsidered carrying it out?

I think you have underestimated the depth of feeling people have for classics in the 'bungles such as Cornerstone Rib, and what it represents in the magical panorama of the Warrumbungles climbing experience.
To get a hold of this sentiment/feeling in an opposite sort of way; ... it may be similar to how you might feel if someone decided to remove the good bolts from another classic known as The Fear at Nth Head?
~> It just wouldn't make sense, right?

White trash
3/06/2011
10:29:48 PM
On 16/05/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>That's me!

ya did wrong Mike. just admit it and move on. prefeably to patch the holes if it hasnt already been done.

White trash
3/06/2011
10:37:54 PM
On 1/06/2011 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>Pitons go in cracks that are formed by mother nature/Gaia/any one of several
>gods/Simey/whichever concept of self appointed supreme being you subscribe
>to.

thats funny!

Where do nuts and cams go Ed?
simey
3/06/2011
11:16:24 PM
I can't comment on the specific bolts placed at the Bungles as I have yet to climb there. I'm just surprised that people have made the effort to place rap bolts there when some of the mega-classic routes at the Coal Ovens in the Wolgan still require you to do multiple raps from manky little trees as the standard descent.

kuu
4/06/2011
8:24:24 AM
On 3/06/2011 useful wrote:
>
>When it comes to replacing of old crap ironmongery my personal opinion
>is that it should be replaced.

I assume you're referring to replacing "like with like", not installing infrastructure of a completely different nature and thus altering the character of the climb?

>Incidentally it pisses me off when old fart FA's stand in the way of this.

Yes, it's a shame that some old climbers don't simply just fade away (AND get out of the way). It's even worse when they dare to hold views contrary to yours, or mine! ;-)
Dr Nick
4/06/2011
9:58:12 AM
On 4/06/2011 kuu wrote:

>I assume you're referring to replacing "like with like",

I've no idea what Mikl put in recently, but I'd have to suggest that wacking in a glue in stainless anchor rather than a rusty carrot is a significant change that will alter the character of a climb, whether it be a stainless carrot, a U, or a ring. One hole or two nearby doesn't change the fact that the anchor is completely artificial, but I'd rather it be something that can be relied on. Otherwise you might as well gaff a draw to the cliff and call it pro.

Eduardo Slabofvic
4/06/2011
10:04:51 AM
On 3/06/2011 White trash wrote:

>Where do nuts and cams go Ed?

They don't go in a bunch of holes that get re-drilled periodically

 Page 4 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 168
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