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Bolting in the Warrumbungles

GoUp!

7-Jun-2011
2:27:51 PM

Wendy, There is also a whole world of alpine rock routes other than those in Europe and the US.

king335

8-Jun-2011
7:52:04 PM

hey martym, i am not pretending to have started the thread, i am referring to the direction i was hoping my comments would steer the conversation.

the guys in the Czech do take this to the absolute extreme. but i'm sure they are full aware of the risks involved. if they are not feeling up to doing particular routes they simply would wait until they were feeling better/ fitter/ stronger etc. If they took a tumble im bet they would not try and blame anyone else for the accident. i have a lot of respect for them for this reason.
perhaps attitudes like yours are part of the reason oz is a nanny state. climbing safely is about gaining the necessary skills to be safe, not rely on other climbers to make it safe for you.

>"I for one was in the Bungles one Easter when it was raining intermitently. To the disappointment of my group, I refused to lead any of the big climbs because I felt the risk was too great, and wasn't keen on losing a ton of gear if we had to bail."

i'm not sure what you are try to say. that you would have taken the risk if you knew you could simply rap off if it started to rain or that other climbers should also use their brains as you did and make a sensible decision.

what has happened in the European alps is very interesting and certainly warrants more discussion. i climbed with a German climber once. he out climbed me with his eyes closed. except for placing gear. he had even done several alpine rock routes but had never placed any trad gear. when i saw him the day before he flew home (after 12months in aus) he thanked me/us for introducing him to trad and told me he was going to buy a full rack once he got back. not sure if it has any real relevance on this thread but an interesting experience i had and thought i would share.

i know it only happened on a couple of routes in the bungles but do these added bolts start a trend to place bolts on all the climbs out there? it certainly wouldn't happen over 12 months but in 10years?

the reason i am so emotional about what has happen out there is because of how big a part of my development as a climber the bungles has played. it was where i did my first FULL trad multipitch climbs. i was introduced to simul-climbing there, i had to make my first real retreats, leaving gear behind.(once on CR when it rained and a second time on bluff mtn when the climbing got to scary/hard midway through the third pitch). i also did my first night climb on CR.
the skills that i learnt through these experiences certainly helped me a great deal when i went to nz.
does the addition of these bolts remove the opportunity for future climbers to have the same experiences and develop these skills before heading into more serious environments?


Miguel75

8-Jun-2011
8:10:10 PM

Where are the grammar/punctuation police when you need them? This thread needs help;)

hipdos

8-Jun-2011
8:12:30 PM

Are you drunk or is english your second language?

Penny

8-Jun-2011
8:14:25 PM

I agree, its important to have somewhere to practise leaving gear behind. Do you know where the young people are doing it these days?

king335

8-Jun-2011
8:24:36 PM

my apologies,
i'm a crappy writer, i sucked at school so bummed out after 10th grade. never really pursued any real education since.
i'm sure you have better comments to make then simply make fun of my lack of education.

hipdos

8-Jun-2011
8:43:42 PM

Maybe try harder. If you come across as illiterate and a moron your opinions will lose credibility. An easy one is to start each sentence with a capital.

egosan

8-Jun-2011
9:53:32 PM

On 8/06/2011 hipdos wrote:
>Maybe try harder. If you come across as illiterate and a moron your opinions
>will lose credibility with condescending snobs who won't refute your arguments.
>An easy one is to start each sentence with a capital.

Fixed that for you.

I am all for a bit of pedantry. Even mean spirited corrections to grammar and usage, but for the love of Dog save the patronizing for your children or something.

I applaud the illiterate moron for standing by his convictions. Further, I applaud him for taking a stand against folks who would in the name of safety and convenience strangle adventure in our wilderness.

hipdos

8-Jun-2011
10:05:14 PM

Thanks for fixing that... I'm not going to refute his argument because I (think I) agree with it. It seems Mike Law may have got this one wrong. Didn't mean to be patronising, just mean spirited!

simey

8-Jun-2011
10:38:17 PM

On 8/06/2011 hipdos wrote:
>Are you drunk or is english your second language?

No need to correct that line.

Wendy

8-Jun-2011
11:26:46 PM

On 7/06/2011 GoUp! wrote:
>Wendy, There is also a whole world of alpine rock routes other than those
>in Europe and the US.

Of course. Some of those will also have bolts on them. I am being rather devil's advocate about it, but bolted retreats aren't new and exciting and different in the wider world.

I managed to gain more then enough skills to handle myself on alpine rock with and without bolts from Arapiles, Moonarie, Buffalo, the Blueys etc etc. It's more about what routes you chose to climb, how you choose to climb them, who you climb them with and what you learn from them. I managed to have epics, retreat in the rain, climb out in the dark, loose gear etc etc just fine.

simey

9-Jun-2011
12:02:07 AM

On 8/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I managed to gain more then enough skills to handle myself on alpine rock
>with and without bolts from Arapiles, Moonarie, Buffalo, the Blueys etc
>etc. It's more about what routes you chose to climb, how you choose to
>climb them, who you climb them with and what you learn from them. I managed
>to have epics, retreat in the rain, climb out in the dark, loose gear etc
>etc just fine.

You wouldn't have gained too many skills for retreating safely on alpine rock if all the climbs you had done in Australia had bolted rappels. Bolted rappels eliminate all decision making, such as... determining whether older anchors are satisfactory or not, what gear to leave behind (without sacrificing your entire rack), the whereabouts for the next rap point and whether the rope will pull okay.

It seems like there is a good argument for not putting bolted retreat rappels in the Warrumbungles. It is renowned for being an adventurous area to climb. Where else in the country would be better to gain such skills?

Wendy

9-Jun-2011
12:29:55 AM

On 9/06/2011 simey wrote:
>On 8/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>I managed to gain more then enough skills to handle myself on alpine
>rock
>>with and without bolts from Arapiles, Moonarie, Buffalo, the Blueys etc
>>etc. It's more about what routes you chose to climb, how you choose
>to
>>climb them, who you climb them with and what you learn from them. I
>managed
>>to have epics, retreat in the rain, climb out in the dark, loose gear
>etc
>>etc just fine.
>
>You wouldn't have gained too many skills for retreating safely on alpine
>rock if all the climbs you had done in Australia had bolted rappels.

Yeah, but they don't! And for that matter, this was only 1 or 2 of a series of raps at the Bungles too ...

>Bolted rappels eliminate all decision making such as... determining whether older
>anchors are satisfactory or not, what gear to leave behind (without sacrificing
>your entire rack), the whereabouts for the next rap point and whether the
>rope will pull okay.
>
>It seems like there is a good argument for not putting bolted retreat
>rappels in the Warrumbungles. It is renowned for being an adventurous area
>to climb. Where else in the country would be better to gain such skills?
>
I was just pointing out that I wasn't hugely disadvantaged by the skills I developed at other Australian crags ... If it pisses down when you are half way up Syrinx or Arachnus, you still have to make similar decisions ... Oh, i forgot, you call 000, don't you ...


Miguel75

9-Jun-2011
12:50:50 AM

On 8/06/2011 king335 wrote:
>my apologies,

No apologies necessary king335. My MO is to add a stupid comment whenever I have nothing constructive to say, which is most every post! Rather, I was lamenting the retirement of evanbb, who used to correct everyone's engrish and punctuation, or so it seemed..;)


nmonteith

9-Jun-2011
9:12:55 AM

Does anyone know at what point the bolted absiels got installed on the back side of Crator Bluff? That is the normal descent for these routes and seems totally accepted. I'm sure they were not installed by the original Dr Dark generation in the 30s.


kuu

9-Jun-2011
9:41:03 AM

On 9/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>Does anyone know at what point the bolted absiels got installed on the
>back side of Crator Bluff? That is the normal descent for these routes
>and seems totally accepted. I'm sure they were not installed by the original
>Dr Dark generation in the 30s.

If you mean the "Green Glacier" descent route that winds its way down the centre of Crater Bluff, then this was DEFINITELY not bolted by Eric Dark and Dot Butler. In 1958 I climbed to the top of the Bluff via their original route (and descended the same way) and our only belays were vegetative. The abseil bolts now used on this descent route are a relatively new addition.


Superstu

9-Jun-2011
9:49:26 AM

The 1976 Joe Friend guide makes mention of an abseil chain on the Tourist Route (i.e the route up to Green Glacier climbed by Dark and Butler)

MichaelF

9-Jun-2011
10:14:17 AM


nmonteith

9-Jun-2011
10:46:42 AM

On 9/06/2011 MichaelF wrote:
>So why the need for another formalised descent?

The Green Glacier descent could potentially be very nasty in bad weather. There is a lot of downclimbing involved - whilst a simpler rap route straight down CR could be a lot of safer.

I find it intriguing that no-one complained when new bolted rap anchors were installed right at the top of the Green Glacier (next to a good tree) on a section where most people could comfortably downclimb.

When is the cut-off year for new hardware - are retrobolts placed before 1975 acceptable but anything after that not? That's the problem with Andrew proclaiming a list of enforceable rules - you actually have to follow them.

MichaelF

9-Jun-2011
11:38:43 AM

So safety is a justification of a second descent route off the bluff? I think it would be safer to go climbing elsewhere due to the blocky nature of the rock and length of the routes.

As I understand it from a previous post the 'rules' have already been outlined in a park management document. The problem of having no style guidelines is that incrementalism changes the character of the crag/s. We all aim to climb in good style in our own climbing. Why not retain the 'bungles as a venue where people can climb in the best possible style?

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