Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Bolting at Piddo (+ easy sport climbs)

12-May-2011
11:05:52 AM

>The way I see it is the main reason there are not more easy sport routes is becuase those poeple that tend to bolt (other than me) start bolting after they are climbing a bit harder so tend to bolt in there grade range...I dont think its a case of not enough potential at the easy grades around....just not the desire to spend money and time to bolt them for what for them would be a ladder.

Thats definently the case in victoria!!


tnd

12-May-2011
11:20:23 AM

Wendy, you display a real lack of empathy, or at least understanding, of where some people are at in terms of what they are prepared to take on. e.g. "And you'd only have a days worth of climbing there if that". Some people will happily go back to the same routes time after time! They don't want to get outside their comfort zone too far. You say they should take up knitting or flower arranging or something, I say they have a right to a little adventure. Even at the grey slab or Bardens Lookout, they are 25m up with space all around and the talus slope falling away below - hugely different experience from the gym. You or I wouldn't think twice about it but they are tremendously challenged.

And "Is it worth creating a bunch more of easy sport routes of dubious quality just because people don't like the other options?". I say yes, you obviously disagree. So what if we take a little bit of nature and mould it to our desire? It's no different to how some places have treetop platforms for those who can't climb a tree, or glass bottom boats for those who don't scuba dive or snorkel.


tnd

12-May-2011
11:23:26 AM

Hmmm, reading throught the recent posts, this is starting to look like a "gang up on Wendy" thread. Sorry! :-)


Andrew_M

12-May-2011
11:53:09 AM

On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:

>What, Finale, Tarn, Ardeche, Valais? The only really easy stuff I can
>think of was the valley crags around Chamonix - which I will give you were
>absolutely packed, and quite often with guiding companies.

Bingo! - you're quoting crags that high level climbers from Oz will visit on a road trip. There's lots of less visited crags without english language guidebooks.

>Where are all these mythical 4cs?

Just off the top of my head...crags with at least some, often lots, of easy bolted leads in that range:

Calanques, Mont st Victoire, Sisteron, Verdon Rive Gauche, Gorges de la Jonte, Riglos and yes the crappy slabs in Chamonix.

Back to the original post...whether piddo should have bolts in it or remain a dedicated trad crag is one question, whether it would be good to have some low grade sport leads at other crags is an entirely different question. Why can't there be both? In Europe there are also huge areas with a dedicated trad ethic that don't have english language guidebooks and are also off the road trip radar.

grangrump

12-May-2011
12:03:29 PM

I always attributed the remarkable popularity of the Dam Cliffs to the large number of easy, bolted routes.

widewetandslippery

12-May-2011
12:05:11 PM

On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>Hmmm, reading throught the recent posts, this is starting to look like
>a "gang up on Wendy" thread. Sorry! :-)

Its footy season

simey

12-May-2011
12:12:32 PM

On 12/05/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>>Hmmm, reading throught the recent posts, this is starting to look like a "gang up on Wendy" thread. Sorry! :-)
>
>Its footy season

Wendy is tough. She is like a nuggety little onballer who is prepared to dive under the bigger bodies to win the hard ball. I'm sure she enjoys it.

But I am surprised at Wendy's comments about leading grade 18 trad. Wendy should know better than anyone that some people (no matter how long they have been climbing and how keen they are) never get comfortable at leading grade 18 on gear, even at Araps.


Andrew_M

12-May-2011
1:52:58 PM

Another thing that's really great about easy bolted climbs in Europe...they're not just for beginners. There seems to be lots of older folk that have been climbing for decades who can't climb the grades anymore, and wouldn't want to come off easy trad climbs and bounce on ledges. Easier bolted stuff keeps them in the game. I'd like to still be climbing in my 70's...

citationx

12-May-2011
2:21:42 PM

On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>Hmmm, reading throught the recent posts, this is starting to look like
>a "gang up on Wendy" thread. Sorry! :-)

I can see where Wendy is coming from and I don't mind her thoughts. When i started climbing at Usyd we really did have to climb at piddington and mt york because we could only climb gr 15 at the time. We learned to place gear, and climb in weird contortions, and in time combining thrutch fests (Sand castle at mt york sticks out in my memory) and indoor gym climbing we got to the 18 level and then started falling off celebrity 18s. It was fine for us and I was probably a better climber for having had to learn trad and do weird things to my body to get up climbs.

Meh. While I lament the fact that my girlfriend can't lead 18s, big deal, she can still enjoy climbing 15s. Easy, i lead a trad climb, set a top rope and she follows (on my own gear, for any sheriffs out there). She learns to lead on shipley 13s and extended-draw 17s and when she's ready to push her boundaries (after more st peters climbing) she can also enjoy pushing herself and falling off harder sport climbs that are unlikely to injure her.

She doesn't feel she's missing out on any climbing experience just because she's not a leader, and I don't necessarily feel that we need to accomodate for her any more than there are already routes she can lead just spread out.


climbertron

12-May-2011
2:43:27 PM

I was very recently a Usyd newbie who couldn't climb 18's consistently. I managed to break the boundary by doing lots of easy trad and whatever easy sport and top ropes I could get to. So I don't think more sport 14's are necessarily "needed".

As for whether the newly bolted line at Piddo is an issue I think probably it's ok.

Paz

12-May-2011
2:43:39 PM

On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>Wendy, you display a real lack of empathy, or at least understanding, of
>where some people are at in terms of what they are prepared to take on.
>e.g. "And you'd only have a days worth of climbing there if that". Some
>people will happily go back to the same routes time after time! They don't
>want to get outside their comfort zone too far. You say they should take
>up knitting or flower arranging or something, I say they have a right to
>a little adventure. Even at the grey slab or Bardens Lookout, they are
>25m up with space all around and the talus slope falling away below - hugely
>different experience from the gym. You or I wouldn't think twice about
>it but they are tremendously challenged.
>
>And "Is it worth creating a bunch more of easy sport routes of dubious
>quality just because people don't like the other options?". I say yes,
>you obviously disagree. So what if we take a little bit of nature and mould
>it to our desire? It's no different to how some places have treetop platforms
>for those who can't climb a tree, or glass bottom boats for those who don't
>scuba dive or snorkel.
>

Mould it to our desire? You've got to be f@cking kidding me.

I can't believe people actually want poxy low teen climbs bolted. What a joke. Sounds like a great idea moulding somewhere to suit someone's wants. Not needs. Next thing i'll be flicking on the tv to see some gridbolter taking fatties from the biggest loser up grade 12 bolted pox. but don't worry, they deserve to have the experience as well as anyone who's put in the effort to learn.....

If people aren't motivated enough to learn how to place wires and hexes or improve, they can stay in the gym or on limited slab/bolt routes. You can already see the quality of sport routes become worse as grades go down. Take The Ravine, what a pile of crap. Sure heaps of people probably enjoy it so they can do some easy ticks and slap each other on the ass later on, they have a great time. But the fact is, there are no LINE/s there, just f@cking jugs and bolts everywhere, rubbish on the ground, shite up the creek, and vegetation everywhere trampled....

The options for newbs are already there, unfortunately they seem to be outweighed by the excuses...

bones

12-May-2011
2:44:25 PM

Easier bolted lines are also great warmups for people like me leading in the low 20s. Not just for a physical warmup, but for getting into the right headspace for leading at my limit. For example, I love that I can run up a 17/18 sport climb at Tribute wall before having a crack at something harder at VDL.
I also often go climbing with beginners, so being able to show them a good day out (without having to spend time setting up topropes or lugging trad gear) while also having a crack a few harder sport lines suits me really well


nmonteith

12-May-2011
3:01:05 PM

On 12/05/2011 Paz wrote:
>But the fact is, there are no LINE/s there,
>just f@cking jugs and bolts everywhere,

I'd suggest you stay away from most sport climbing areas then. Especially Red River Gorge!


rodw

12-May-2011
3:42:29 PM

Nah Paz is okay with it as long as its a hard grade I presume???, his description pretty much decsribes 95% any sport route, ie bolts up an ill defined line, but having a big number must mean its justified??...or is it just an anti sport climbing rant in general?

Either way it made me laugh as it came across as "My opinion is more valid as Im a hard man with bigger balls blah blah blah."

psd

12-May-2011
3:50:28 PM

On 12/05/2011 Paz wrote:
rubbish on the ground, shite up
>the creek, and vegetation everywhere trampled....

thank god hard climbers would never do anything like that - those damn bumbly enviro vandals ... (been to the glen lately?) better keep them in the gym where they can do less damage

How is it ok to sink steel and create paths etc for hard climbers not bumblies? Let's extend the argument for those who tick plus 30 and say there's no excuse for bolted grade 25s because you should just climb trad if you want easy ticks like that ... and everyone knows the quality goes through the roof at grade 30 ...

As others have said the bolted route this thread is about is on poxy rock on what is pretty much the walk in to the crag it's not like someone bolted the slab between Eternity and Joseph ... oh wait a minute ...


tnd

12-May-2011
3:53:31 PM

On 12/05/2011 Paz wrote:
>blah blah blah

25 years old and knows it all...does your mummy still wipe your arse for you sonny?

When you're a big boy you'll come to learn that mankind has spent millennia bending nature to his will. It's the human condition.

Feel free to scream into the wind though. It's amusing to watch.

Wendy

12-May-2011
4:34:00 PM

Woe is me, feeling terribly misunderstood ...

I'm not saying that everyone should climb grade 18 trad Simey! I'm saying if they can't climb grade 18 sport, which is about the bottom end of what is available, it's better that they learn to climb trad, do some classic grade 8 - 12s, which do exist, even in the Blue Mtns then we create a bunch of scrappy really easy sport routes.

This desire that there should be easy sport routes, as if somehow the world has a right to bolted routes at whatever grade they are climbing is what I am questioning. This may end up sounding like an elistist argument, but I am saying this is also because the nature of rock and climbing is such that easy routes tend to be possible to protect with gear. If someone found an amazing vertical juggy face that had no gear options in it at all and wanted to turn it into a wall of grade 12 sport routes, fine. But I don't think such a thing exists and that we shouldn't go trying to create it just because a cohort of climbers aren't willing to extend themselves to the highly demanding passtime of leading really easy trad or training indoors to get to the point where they can climb those routes which lend themselves to bolting. As i said, a lowangled granite slab could be a natural candidate for easy sport routes, but as such a thing doesn't exist in the blueys, no one is asking for it.

I may be failing abysmally to be empathic, but i do think it is in the nature of the sport to have to push one's boundaries a bit and we have gotten to a point where people really are trying to make something inherently adventurous and demanding risk management into something totally comfortable. I'm not comfortable with that move. It doesn't prevent people participating. It means they have to adjust their perceptions in order to participate.

In order to be not totally elitist here, i also don't think routes that can be safely naturally protected should be bolted just because the person who eyes off the line is a sport climber either and this applies at all grades.

satan

12-May-2011
4:41:18 PM

A dedicated follower of fascism?

Who decides what's fashionable. Are you the arbiter of taste Neil, or are you trying to second guess the tastes of others, including your hypothetical girlfriend.

But I digress. Piddo definitely needs more bolts. I hate having to place gear on Eternity.


climbertron

12-May-2011
4:42:27 PM

On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
> If someone
>found an amazing vertical juggy face that had no gear options in it at
>all and wanted to turn it into a wall of grade 12 sport routes, fine.
>But I don't think such a thing exists...

Surely these things exist (what about e.g. Dam Ciffs). And surely every such wall has not been bolted/developed.

Wendy

12-May-2011
4:44:27 PM

While I'm at it, I should also point out that trad is not some inherently scary and dangerous passtime. This is not some monstrous thing I'm suggesting that people could be doing instead of dreaming of easy sport cliffs. And that if you were to fall off an easy sport route, the chances of you hitting a ledge or low angled rock beneath you are equally likely as falling off a trad route, except that you wouldn't have any control over how far you had to run it out to the next bolt. 3m spacings on a low angled, highly featured wall leaves lots of potential for ugly falls.

There are 182 messages in this topic.