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Bolting at Piddo (+ easy sport climbs)

12-May-2011
8:42:04 AM

This is quite true in victoria wendy. Nowra on the other hand has plenty of fantastic easy routes. These routes are so easy that even ODH could get up them?! ;.)

I think Neil did a great job with the Ravine too. That area has some great easy sport routes.

Wendy

12-May-2011
8:45:07 AM

And on the deaths on easy routes in the Blueys - well we have deaths on Syrinx, Dminor, Beautiful Possibilities and so on. People have died or been badly injured ripping gear here. It's not a reason for saying a route can't be well protected.

TonyH

12-May-2011
8:46:44 AM

On 11/05/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/05/2011 TonyH wrote:
>>The grade 15 arete right of Helen (Bolt Upright) is a contender, it'sa
>>nice route in a good location but it needs a bolt ot two coz it's a desperate
>>lead in it's current natural state. I think Mikl soloed it originally.
>>
>...which are two excellent reasons why it shouldn't be bolted.

Indeed! Only the FA would have the right to change it.


Superstu

12-May-2011
8:55:30 AM

On 12/05/2011 davidn wrote:
>Exponential bolting is a good thing. Discuss.

For every bolt that appears at a crag, two more will soon appear!?


rodw

12-May-2011
9:02:38 AM

On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Can any name a selection of worthwhile sub 18 sport routes? I can only
>think of a handful, they are quite spread out and unmemorable. There is
>a reason for that.

Just hit thecrag.com or the aca site and see comments on the many less than 18 sport grade routes.....there are lot that get comments like, awsome, classic etc...but I guess it comes down to what "your" definition of worthwhile is?

Wendy

12-May-2011
9:07:21 AM

On 12/05/2011 davidn wrote:
>I think the honest truth is that most sub 15-18 climbing is fairly unmemorable
>for the moves themselves; low grade trad climbs are memorable more for
>pants-filling aren't they?
>
Depends on the route - some of the ones here are glorious for a range of reasons - good rock, stunning positions, nice climbing. The Eyrie and stuff on that wall probably gets a similar range of goodness.

The other thing people can always do in the Blueys is top rope. York has plenty of accessible topropes for people unable to lead a grade 18 sport route and unwilling to learn how to place a bit of gear. Of course, they will still have to learn how to set up an anchor. If that's all too hard, repeat mantra ... stay in the gym. There are some things you just have to do in climbing. If you don't want to do them, you don't want to climb.

Wendy

12-May-2011
9:14:21 AM

On 12/05/2011 rodw wrote:
>On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>Can any name a selection of worthwhile sub 18 sport routes? I can only
>>think of a handful, they are quite spread out and unmemorable. There
>is
>>a reason for that.
>
>Just hit thecrag.com or the aca site and see comments on the many less
>than 18 sport grade routes.....there are lot that get comments like, awsome,
>classic etc...but I guess it comes down to what "your" definition of worthwhile
>is?

in order to save me all that searching, can you run a few suggested routes by me?

I'm also not talking about grade ranges such as are available at Celebrity, Shipley, the Ravine, the Sun deck - these are what I am considering the bottom end of reasonable sport climbing grades (memory does tell me there was a 13 at shipley, but it only had about 2 bolts in it last I knew). I'm asking about true beginner grade sport routes.


rodw

12-May-2011
9:30:28 AM

I could name plenty I enjoyed but the point I was trying to make is just becuase you dont consider it worthwhile...dosnt mean others don't...at any crag I developed Ive found its the sub 18 routes that get the most traffic because I imagine that what most people climb...and obviously enjoy?.....just because its sub 18 dosn't mean its automatically crap and just becuase someone climbs sub 18 sport dosn't mean they should be relegated to a gym.

widewetandslippery

12-May-2011
9:35:28 AM

I'm boned up about the 2 50+m grade 16 sport routes I'm going to do tomorrow.


tnd

12-May-2011
9:35:39 AM

No-one said the sub-18 bolted routes had to be classics. The fact that they are sub-18 and safely bolted makes them classic to the people who want to push themselves a bit in a more controlled environment. Some people take a long time to stretch their boundaries, and leading outdoors is an entirely different experience to leading outdoors.

As rodw said, routes like Mañana and the other easy stuff as Medlow, the grey slab routes at Shipley (including Trinity, the 13, which was retro'd with rings) and so on get a heap of good raps from happy beginners. But Wendy would rather they stay in the gym, her being a highly skilled professional and all.


tnd

12-May-2011
9:44:50 AM

On 11/05/2011 egosan wrote:
>...Climbing is a dangerous activity.

Actually it's not. It's a *potentially* dangerous activity. The danger can be managed.

>tnd do you not spend shit loads of money on bits of metal? Do you not
>bolt your own routes? Do you not contribute to re-bolting funds? Why must
>you confuse the argument?

I have and do. But I don't expect anyone else to and understand why others don't want to.

I also mostly self-learned the trade doing dodgy things in ignorance, but I've been blessed with the ability to improve quickly, very high risk tolerance and, most of all, oodles of plain dumb luck! But I understand that most sensible people don't want to take that approach and I have no problem with making it "as safe as possible" for them.

BTW, regarding The Obituary, I must say that is one route where I can't understand how people came a cropper. If you carried 20kg of gear you'd find somewhere to place it all. The only awkward moves are at the start where you can get a good spot from your belayer.


nmonteith

12-May-2011
9:52:34 AM

Here is a (non) hypothetical. I climb up to about 26 on sport routes, my girlfriend climbs at most about grade 17 and doesn't really feel comfortable leading much more than 14. For her your mythical grade '18' is very hard. She has no interest in going to the gym and getting stronger. She has no interest in getting scared trad leading. She just likes hanging out at the crag and doing a few fun routes, reading some mags and napping in the sun. For her a safe grade 14 sport route would be really nice and make her day. It doesn't have to be a mega classic exposed awesome three star line. It just needs to be a bit of fun to pass the time.


Andrew_M

12-May-2011
10:12:07 AM

On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:

>It's pretty rare to find routes below 5c at sport crags in europe.

Er, is it? There are huge numbers of sport climbs below this grade. Probably not at the crags you've climbed at though...

widewetandslippery

12-May-2011
10:14:23 AM

I would like to reiterate my point we are talking about a little cliff in a nice spot under a lookout that is near to but hardly defines rockclimbing at Mt Piddington that is generally used by climbers as a beginners area.

A few bolts there will hopefully keep climbing instructors (who are the bane of the recreational climber) and there clients away from a good cliff.


nmonteith

12-May-2011
10:21:59 AM

Wendy

12-May-2011
10:34:25 AM

On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>No-one said the sub-18 bolted routes had to be classics. The fact that
>they are sub-18 and safely bolted makes them classic to the people who
>want to push themselves a bit in a more controlled environment. Some people
>take a long time to stretch their boundaries, and leading outdoors is an
>entirely different experience to leading outdoors.

I struggle to see that leading outdoor well bolted sport is an entirely different experience to indoors. It's in a much nicer spot, you might get some exposeure (but probably not on the things we are talking about) but what you actually do in terms of leading is the same.

>
>As rodw said, routes like Mañana and the other easy stuff as Medlow, the
>grey slab routes at Shipley (including Trinity, the 13, which was retro'd
>with rings) and so on get a heap of good raps from happy beginners. But
>Wendy would rather they stay in the gym, her being a highly skilled professional
>and all.

I'm saying that we need some touch with reality here! Easy peasy sport routes aren't abundant for a reason. And I don't think we need to try and create them for a market that has other options but they just don't happen to like them. People choose not to climb trad. In making that choice, they limit their options to (a) the gym, (b) moderate and upwards routes and (c) very few routes of less quality. Is it worth creating a bunch more of easy sport routes of dubious quality just because people don't like the other options? To what extent is it even possible?

I don't think the grey slab routes at Shipley are really that great. They're ok. There's no awesome about them. And you'd only have a days worth of climbing there if that. And where are you going to add another dozen or so easy routes there for these masses seeking them?

Wendy

12-May-2011
10:42:31 AM

On 12/05/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>Here is a (non) hypothetical. I climb up to about 26 on sport routes, my
>girlfriend climbs at most about grade 17 and doesn't really feel comfortable
>leading much more than 14. For her your mythical grade '18' is very hard.
>She has no interest in going to the gym and getting stronger. She has no
>interest in getting scared trad leading. She just likes hanging out at
>the crag and doing a few fun routes, reading some mags and napping in the
>sun. For her a safe grade 14 sport route would be really nice and make
>her day. It doesn't have to be a mega classic exposed awesome three star
>line. It just needs to be a bit of fun to pass the time.

Maybe the sad reality is that Kathy will have to do a lot more hanging out napping and reading. Some people's tastes and preferences aren't particularly compatible with the realities of the sport. How many crags have potential 14s next to your 26s?

And there's no need to get scared trad leading! I'm far more scared having to run it out to the next bolt than I am lacing a trad route! Isn't there a point here about broadening one's skill base to participate rather than desperately seeking things that will enable participation for those of a smaller skill base? This doesn't necessarily mean climbing harder, but it does mean learning about gear in order to access those routes that are easier. I don't think there's anything about gear that makes it impossible for someone to learn even if they might never climb 18.

I think what really gets to me in the whole discussion is how we are really accommodating climbing more and more to a certain mindset. Climbing isn't about providing comfortable experiences for everybody. We have to learn and adapt to the challenges provided by it. And if you aren't willing to learn and adapt, there are already purpose made environments enabling you to participate at the level to which you choose. These people can still enjoy the outdoors by going bushwalking or having a picnic.

Wendy

12-May-2011
10:45:23 AM

On 12/05/2011 Andrew_M wrote:
>On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
>
>>It's pretty rare to find routes below 5c at sport crags in europe.
>
>Er, is it? There are huge numbers of sport climbs below this grade. Probably
>not at the crags you've climbed at though...

What, Finale, Tarn, Ardeche, Valais? The only really easy stuff I can think of was the valley crags around Chamonix - which I will give you were absolutely packed, and quite often with guiding companies. I'll guess that Orpierre is endowed with some as well given the history of it's development.

Where are all these mythical 4cs? Where are the 5.6 sport routes in the states?

12-May-2011
10:55:43 AM

The point people are making wendy is that it is all relative. Someone with vast experience, like my good mate damo for instance, is likely to be more critical than a newbie fresh from the gym.

The fact that most 'newbie's' can climb harder than Damo is beside the point ;D.

At the end of the day though you have to ask the question "does it really matter if mediocre routes exist"? If they start to effect access, then i agree they shouldn't be bolted. The sundeck is an absolute pile (no offense Joe G!) yet it gets heaps of ascents. I had a good time there too. Not every route has to be serpentine.


rodw

12-May-2011
11:04:05 AM

On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I don't think the grey slab routes at Shipley are really that great.
>They're ok. There's no awesome about them.

Thats your problem there, some people love those slabs...you dont thats fine.....but the way your arguing is that if you dont find a particular grade at a particular style worthwhile...it isn't and shouldnt be accomodated by those willing to accomodate it....I hate to say it wendy but you did ask before that you didnt want to sound like a grade snob...but you are.

The way I see it is the main reason there are not more easy sport routes is becuase those poeple that tend to bolt (other than me) start bolting after they are climbing a bit harder so tend to bolt in there grade range...I dont think its a case of not enough potential at the easy grades around....just not the desire to spend money and time to bolt them for what for them would be a ladder.

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