General Climbing Discussion

Author	Bolting at Piddo (+ easy sport climbs)
Superstu 11-May-2011 5:17:31 PM	Viparete has fiddly gear from memory and Birds Nest was death. Don't know the others. Maybe we should make a recommended easy early trad leads in the mountains list.
rodw 11-May-2011 6:18:31 PM	On 11/05/2011 superstu wrote: >... but I do lament there aren't really >any all-trad crags in the blues, just about everywhere is bolted to some >degree. Maybe one day I will wander past the usual crags in the Wolgan >and stumble upon a pure innocent crack climbing nirvana... Just leave the guide book at home and head out somewhere...there is so much rock in and around Sydney your bound to find some virgin bolt free trad test piece...Ive found plenty of potential trad routes but Im not a trad climber and the sport stuff around them was average so quickly forgotten....next time its raining...head out into the wilderness to scout out your new test piece.
Dr Nick 11-May-2011 7:04:01 PM	On 11/05/2011 TonyH wrote: >Yep, Viparete is a solid lead at the grade, not one to fall off. Ditto >Aunty Jack, even if it is a classic. Now that's interesting. I first jumped on Viparete as my first 17, and there's still a faint mark from the rope getting caught between my arm and my chest on a big whipper from the crux. I think every piece below the crux was tenuous at best, and I seem to remember several falling out due to the cracks being just too damn shallow. I've done it since and found it nice, but effectively soloing to the crux. On the other hand I've never noticed any sketchiness on Aunty Jack, and I'm sure I first did it when I was climbing 19-ish. There's good gear in the first little thrutch, then bolts (OK, manky carrots) up the wall aren't there?
wallwombat 11-May-2011 8:17:56 PM	Yellow crack is a bouldering problem followed by a jug haul. No one ever talks about leading Minotaur, at Piddo. It's only 19. Hands up?
Estey 11-May-2011 8:34:17 PM	On 11/05/2011 superstu wrote: >My to-do tick list is three times as long. Bah to the idea there aren't >safe easy trad leads in the Glueys. ok I'll have a crack. Opinion- many of the Bluies cracks that have a rep for being safe easy beginners routes aren't as safe as commonly thought. A lot of the rock inside the cracks on routes like The Obituary and even Gently Mine is pretty soft. Despite Mike's gear testing experiments, I'm very hesitant on calling that gear bombproof, especially if cams are placed. These are good routes to climb that deserve respect and lots of gear. An area with a bunch of 14-18 sport climbs would be popular and valuable.
Superstu 11-May-2011 8:42:55 PM	In the softer rock where it sometimes gets wider inside, I find hexes are invaluable. But I don't see them much on people's trad racks around the mountains, not sure why.
climberman 11-May-2011 9:40:26 PM	Isn't Interstate 31 at Cosmic ? I allus used to consider that a pretty mainstream Blueys crag.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 11-May-2011 10:16:00 PM	On 11/05/2011 TonyH wrote: >The grade 15 arete right of Helen (Bolt Upright) is a contender, it'sa >nice route in a good location but it needs a bolt ot two coz it's a desperate >lead in it's current natural state. I think Mikl soloed it originally. > ...which are two excellent reasons why it shouldn't be bolted.
tnd 11-May-2011 10:24:59 PM	Stu, if you think these climbs you mention - a lot of which are chossy crap - Thunderfart - WTF! - are so safe, then I look forward to seeing you jumping off a couple, say a nice 2m fall to see how well your gear holds. At least one of the routes has had a serious accident when gear pulled. I guess you've done Snap, Crackle and Pop at Mt York. Lovely easy grade beginners' routes. Only a few fatalities between them. Or The Obituary - three deaths on one route. I'd rather see beginners pull laps of the few safely bolted low grade routes around, get to grade 18 competently and consistently and then get onto the crap trad routes. That's if they want to spend a shit load of money on bits of metal.
robertsonja 11-May-2011 11:09:10 PM	On 10/05/2011 useful wrote: >Awesome thought provoking response Neil. Very funny, I almost choked on my coffee.
egosan 11-May-2011 11:19:55 PM	On 11/05/2011 tnd wrote: >Stu, if you think these climbs you mention - a lot of which are chossy >crap - Thunderfart - WTF! - are so safe, then I look forward to seeing >you jumping off a couple, say a nice 2m fall to see how well your gear >holds. At least one of the routes has had a serious accident when gear >pulled. > >I guess you've done Snap, Crackle and Pop at Mt York. Lovely easy grade >beginners' routes. Only a few fatalities between them. Or The Obituary >- three deaths on one route. Cry more and think of the children! Climbing is a dangerous activity. Get used to it. This idea that bolting old school deat... I mean trad routes will make climbing safe for the beginners or for anyone else for that matter is just plain wrong. For every trad climber that decked because of bad gear I bet we can find 10 sport climbers who decked because they didn't tie a knot in the end of their rope. >I'd rather see beginners pull laps of the few safely bolted low grade >routes around, get to grade 18 competently and consistently and then get >onto the crap trad routes. That's if they want to spend a shit load of >money on bits of metal. tnd do you not spend shit loads of money on bits of metal? Do you not bolt your own routes? Do you not contribute to re-bolting funds? Why must you confuse the argument?
evanbb 12-May-2011 6:21:53 AM	On 11/05/2011 wallwombat wrote: >No one ever talks about leading Minotaur, at Piddo. It's only 19. > >Hands up? I belayed someone on it who backed off. Farken committing start.
evanbb 12-May-2011 6:24:34 AM	On 11/05/2011 tnd wrote: > Or The Obituary >- three deaths on one route. Yeah and the last one was an abseiling accident. If you're using deaths on another route, which I might add has excellent gear, to justify bolting something at another crag, then there simply aren't any climbs that should not be bolted.
rodw 12-May-2011 7:21:05 AM	On 11/05/2011 egosan wrote: > This idea that bolting old school deat... I mean trad routes >will make climbing safe for the beginners or for anyone else for that matter >is just plain wrong. I dont think this route even existed (or would exist) before the bolts...so dont think it or anyone is advocating bolting established trad routes...in this thread anyway.
E. Wells 12-May-2011 7:22:17 AM	The obituary is not a dangerous route. People have died on it, but its completely protectable all the way. Birdsnest however....
Estey 12-May-2011 7:39:29 AM	On 12/05/2011 dangermouth wrote: >The obituary is not a dangerous route. People have died on it, but its >completely protectable all the way. Birdsnest however.... More than one climber has stripped a cam falling on the Obituary. Protectable ... yes. Dangerous ... not in my view but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. People sometimes overestimate the overall quality of the protection.
Superstu 12-May-2011 8:03:54 AM	On 11/05/2011 tnd wrote: >Stu, if you think these climbs you mention - a lot of which are chossy >crap - Thunderfart - WTF! - are so safe, then I look forward to seeing >you jumping off a couple, say a nice 2m fall to see how well your gear >holds. At least one of the routes has had a serious accident when gear >pulled. It's been a while since I was on Judas Messiah Connection but I lobbed onto some gear on it. I'll add Decline and Fall at Coke Ovens to the list, my fat fingers wouldn't fit into the notoriously thin crack and I took a few falls on it before handing the sharp end over to Enmoore (who cruised it). I lob onto my gear often enough I reckon. I'm a scaredycat and generally won't climb above totally mank gear. >I guess you've done Snap, Crackle and Pop at Mt York. Lovely easy grade >beginners' routes. Only a few fatalities between them. Or The Obituary >- three deaths on one route. I never said that ALL easy grade routes in the bluies are well protected. There are plenty that aren't. I was just saying that I reckon its a myth that there are no well protected trad climbs in the easier grades. My list was not a list of recommended routes for people to do their early trad leads. If I was to make a list for that, they would be around the grade 12-14 range and suck up bomber passive pro. >I'd rather see beginners pull laps of the few safely bolted low grade >routes around, get to grade 18 competently and consistently and then get >onto the crap trad routes. That's if they want to spend a shit load of >money on bits of metal. Then you'll just create another generation of climbers who can't place pro and I'll never find anybody to climb with!
evanbb 12-May-2011 8:25:56 AM	On 12/05/2011 superstu wrote: >I never said that ALL easy grade routes in the bluies are well protected. Yes. I've stripped a cam and had a ground fall on the (ahem) 13 in the corner, left of Hope, Faith etc. Might be Charity? Cannae remember.
Wendy 12-May-2011 8:31:30 AM	On 11/05/2011 davidn wrote: >In all honesty, Wendy, yes that does sound a bit elitist. To someone climbing >27, 28, whatever, anyone should be able to climb grade 18. However I think >you'd find there are many people for whom climbing 18 isn't a matter of >intention as time available, physical ability and mental capacity as well >as desire. *some* people want to climb the highest numbers and the scariest >things possible. Certainly not all. I'm not climbing 28 incidently! My somewhat elitism is actually fuelled by a little bit of practicality. 18 is pretty much the bottom end of worthwhile sport routes. There aren't a stack of bolted easy things because they are either obvious trad routes, or complete mank. The obvious exception would be some decently bolted easy granite slabs, which I don't see people crying out for as they don't exist in the areas where decent sport starts at 18-22. It's pretty rare to find routes below 5c at sport crags in europe. Same reasoning. So people pretty much start climbing at 16-18 over there. The obvious way to prepare for that missing grade element is in the gym. Which if all you are interested in is sport climbing, shouldn't be too painful. So what we have in this demand for easy sport climbs seems to be a bunch of people who for whatever reasons are unhappy to go for the options available - ie, trad, gym, or 18+. Given that these options are all more feasible than the establishment of a decent collection of easy sport routes, I think the best option is to encourage people to learn trad or train in the gym until they can climb the available outdoor options. Can any name a selection of worthwhile sub 18 sport routes? I can only think of a handful, they are quite spread out and unmemorable. There is a reason for that.
Wendy 12-May-2011 8:41:49 AM	On 11/05/2011 nmonteith wrote: >Those routes (mostly mine) just before VD land get a heap of traffic. >I bolted some of them with funding from a uni club who really wanted some >easier sport routes in Victoria to teach their members leading. When i >was there a few weeks back there was a group of maybe 30 climbers swarming >over them all day. So although they might not be three star classics - >they certainly are popular. What you get out of climbing isn't what everyone >else gets out of climbing. On the same day there would have only been a >couple of climbers on Taipan Wall. > But only 3 of these routes are sub 18 anyway, and of those, I'd only call 1 of them anything resembling easy. the 17 is desperate at the start. And what is this nonsense about bolting routes to teach leading? If you're going to teach leading on bolts, do it in the gym! Again, i wouldn't have thought there was anything good to teach leading on in that collection of stuff. Really bouldery starts to the 16 and 17, lots of potential to fall on the first or second bolts. Repeat mantra of learn in gym or learn trad! It seems what people are really demanding is an outdoor gym so they get the nice feelings of being outdoors with all the comforts of being indoors. We can't change reality to suit these dreams. >I think many experienced climbers forgot what it was like to be a bumbly. >I've been around long enough to see a lot of the 'elitist' hard climbers >grow up. I saw them starting out enjoying easy sport routes, get scared >and fall off stuff they would now probably solo. When you start out big >long routes on Taipan are just a dream - and the 10m mini route is the >reality. > Unless you learn to climb trad, where you can do amazing pitches at easy grades - even in the Blueys. BTW, there were about 30 people swarming all over Taipan both days I was there last week too.

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