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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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4:47:07 PM |
On 12/05/2011 climbertron wrote: >On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote: >> If someone >>found an amazing vertical juggy face that had no gear options in it at >>all and wanted to turn it into a wall of grade 12 sport routes, fine. > >>But I don't think such a thing exists... > >Surely these things exist (what about e.g. Dam Ciffs). And surely every >such wall has not been bolted/developed. last I knew about it, the dams cliffs still start at 16, of which there was 1 or 2, on manky carrots of less than comfortable frequency. And the only reason they were popular was the proximity to nice swimming and not having to walk very far. But maybe I'm cynical. |
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4:57:15 PM |
The first sport leads I did were a carroted(shiny) 10 and 12 at the Dams. But your right there are not many | |||||
4:57:25 PM |
Where the hell are all these scary sport climbs? | |||||
5:58:50 PM |
On 12/05/2011 rodw wrote: >Nah Paz is okay with it as long as its a hard grade I presume???, Not at all... his description >pretty much decsribes 95% any sport route, ie bolts up an ill defined line, >but having a big number must mean its justified??... No ..or is it just an anti >sport climbing rant in general? > More or less >Either way it made me laugh as it came across as "My opinion is more valid >as Im a hard man with bigger balls blah blah blah." Once again, not at all. I'm a shiit climber who doesn't climb harder than low-20's. I just don't see the point of bolting more rock to appease the masses when they have so many other options, ie, top rope, gym, easy trad. |
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6:02:10 PM |
On 12/05/2011 tnd wrote: >On 12/05/2011 Paz wrote: >>blah blah blah > >25 years old and knows it all...does your mummy still wipe your arse for >you sonny? > No need, your mummies tongue waggling was bound to be good for something.... >When you're a big boy you'll come to learn that mankind has spent millennia >bending nature to his will. It's the human condition. Insightful. We should go out together sometime and shoot some shiit. |
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7:13:33 PM |
It took me 5 pages before I worked out what this is about and I'm still not sure. On 12/05/2011 Wendy wrote: >I'm not saying that everyone should climb grade 18 trad Simey! I'm saying >if they can't climb grade 18 sport, which is about the bottom end of what >is available, Yeah climbing grade 18+ is where sport climbing begins in the bluies and I do kinda think the vast majority of people who climb below that grade (unless held back by age, medical conditions, etc) ie a uni student, should be able to attempt to lead at that grade, what stops them - fear of falling in my experience. Gotta learn that bit first. However if you enjoy sub 18 on sport screw everybody else's opinions. >This desire that there should be easy sport routes, as if somehow the >world has a right to bolted routes at whatever grade they are climbing >is what I am questioning. Why not if somebody is kind enough to bolt it? But if nobody bolts at that grade then sucked in. Kinda surprises me no experienced bolter has offered to those that can't bolt "if you see a line you like I will bolt it for you if you pay for the bolts and the glue and you get the first ascent" My mate bolted the route this massive thread is about. It was one of his first. Yes its in shit rock but it is also quite juggy. Its also at piddo so.... We have a mate who is now over 70 and due to a few health problems he can no longer climb at grade 20+ hes now stuck below 18 and even then he usually pulls on a draw or two. These two have now put up 6+ new sport routes around (yes there own funds) specifically for there enjoyment and for anybody else who wants a shot. I hope nobody here expects them to stop...... |
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7:21:18 PM |
On 12/05/2011 Paz wrote: >..or is it just an anti >>sport climbing rant in general? >> >More or less So why would you go to a sport climbing only crag like The Ravine if you hate sport climbing so much? |
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7:49:15 PM |
Wendy's argument is that easy sport routes are usually too crap to be bolted.....come on... are you really saying that EVERY easy trad route at arapiles and the gramps is quality? Go for a little walk around Mt York .... there are enough absolutely rubbish easy old trad routes to last a lifetime! Good old Chris Baxter and his crew must have put up enough complete rubbish to fill half a dozen guidebooks (though there were obviously some classics too), and some of Ewbanks routes are embarrassingly crap! Even Frog Buttress has some tiny thrutching vegetated mank, and Yosemite has miles of it! Surely bumbly sport climbers have just as much right to climb completely rotten piles of rubbish, just like trad climbers do? ;)) |
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8:25:24 PM |
I have read all the posts and decided to get a username and password for the first time to be able to reply to this thread. My thoughts are that it doesn't matter what the grade of the route is, if it is a crap route then it shouldn't be bolted. What constitutes crap is entirely subjective, so if the bolter thinks that this route is great then he has as much right to bolt it as a grade grade 30 climber bolting his/her dream line. I don't know the history behind this route and what it climbs like, but there are a few questions I would like to know. Was this climb bolted by the first ascensionist or by a friend bolting it as a present for the climber, or by a guide wanting an easy climb to teach sport lead climbing to clients. My position is this climb should only be bolted at Piddo if the first ascensionist thinks that this is a worthwhile climb, there is no good natural protection, others may want to repeat the climb and that this climb doesn't detract from the already established neighbouring routes. Otherwise climb this climb with natural pro, toprope it (which should be done prior to bolting it anyway) or go and repeat a multitude of other clasic blue mountains climbs until you find a worthwhile addition to mount Piddington |
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8:26:17 PM |
On 11/05/2011 nmonteith wrote: >On 11/05/2011 One Day Hero wrote: > >Welcome back ODH! We missed you! Yeah, I've missed you all too.......shame real climbing has to get in the way. > > >Those routes (mostly mine) just before VD land get a heap of traffic. >I bolted some of them with funding from a uni club who really wanted some >easier sport routes in Victoria to teach their members leading. Why can't they teach people to lead at araps? It bothers me that people would rather learn on poxy bolted shit than on incredibly safe, fantastic trad. >What you get out of climbing isn't what everyone >else gets out of climbing. Everyone else is wrong......and probably a bit retarded > >I think many experienced climbers forgot what it was like to be a bumbly. The first day I touched rock, I started learning to place gear. Why is this such a strange and scary concept? I was teaching a newcomer at araps the other day, they were stoked to start learning about gear placement on day 2. > When you start out big >long routes on Taipan are just a dream - and the 10m mini route is the >reality. > The 10m shit, bolted route in the gramps is one possible reality. Fantastic easy trad and\or toproping at araps is a far better reality. > >But a lot of glue can! :-) Man, tianjara needs about 2000L of glue to even approach solidity :) |
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8:32:43 PM |
On 12/05/2011 Mr Brownstone wrote: >My thoughts are that it doesn't matter what the grade of the route is, > if it is a crap route then it shouldn't be bolted. What constitutes crap >is entirely subjective....... I mostly agree with you Brownie.......but crap is not subjective, what's crap or not should be decided by people who actually have taste......like me. Having never seen this route at Piddo, I should reserve judgement, but won't. It's a steaming pile of grunder and the knobhead who bolted it oughta really take a good hard look at themselves if they think that this is a positive addition to an amazing crag! |
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8:57:04 PM |
Sport climbing started out with the justification of "its just the moves" implying something about quality (hard or easy). Now it seems they want to claim all the crap routes too! Enough is enough - crap is the last bastion of trad and we should fight for it. KEEP CRAP TRAD |
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9:22:40 PM |
What is wrong with toproping or being top belayed up grade 15s. That is what I did when i first started climbing and found this very enjoyable. I used to set up many a top rope on climbs I wanted to do when I was learning and enjoyed both the climbing and the rigging of top ropes. Even after learning to lead I never thought that it should be my right to have sport routes that were at my level. I still top rope trad routes that I find appealing, but above my level. Having never been on the route that is the topic if this post I can not say that this is a crap route, but if it is worthwhile, why hasn't the hundreds of thousands of visitors to Piddo in the last 50 years already climbed it? | |||||
6:52:16 AM |
On 12/05/2011 useful wrote: >Sport climbing started out with the justification of "its just the moves" >implying something about quality (hard or easy). > >Now it seems they want to claim all the crap routes too! Enough is enough >- crap is the last bastion of trad and we should fight for it. > >KEEP CRAP TRAD thanks for that, you just made my morning. |
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7:04:10 AM |
On 12/05/2011 davidn wrote: >I think the thing is - there's massive, massive, huge, massive numbers >of trad climbs at low grades. that is my point - there are heaps of things to climb, we don't need to create more of them. I just don't see adding a few sub-18 sport >climbs as being the impetus for eventually converting every low grade climb >into a bolt-fest. Of course I don't think it's going to turn everything into a bolt fest There are a bunch of other arguments you're making, >but those are really conditional arguments (e.g. based on the presumption >that sport climbs are going to be poorly bolted, I'm not even saying poorly bolted, just that falls on easy sport are going to be potentially hazardous because of the nature of easy climbing regardless of reasonably spaced bolts or that any sport climb >under 18 is going to be poxy, I'm standing by this as highly likely! or that people can't learn to bring a few >cams on their sport climb to fill the 3 metre gaps in which case, they may as well put their skills to use on the many many trad options! or maybe the route didn't need bolts to protect it in the first place. , or for that matter >that everyone will have enough money for much more expensive trad gear >vs a few quickdraws). How many of us were poor students scavenging a rack together? I don't think poverty prevented us from managing to go climbing pre sport days. Not to mention the Spaz argument - harden the f--- >up, i climb 'hard' so you're all pussies. Vintage One Day Hero? Perhaps, >but a one track record becomes a bit monotonous. > I have a bit of sympathy for the HTFU argmument here - climbing is not a lounge chair sport. Like it or not, it comes with a bunch of extras, like hard work, technical skills, getting scared and getting spanked. If you want comfortised, stay in the gym. Hang out with people who can put ropes up on routes for you. There are already options for the timid adventurer. Or broaden your horizons a bit. |
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7:08:25 AM |
On 12/05/2011 another dave wrote: > >Why not if somebody is kind enough to bolt it? But if nobody bolts at >that grade then sucked in. > >Kinda surprises me no experienced bolter has offered to those that can't >bolt "if you see a line you like I will bolt it for you if you pay for >the bolts and the glue and you get the first ascent" Maybe because there aren't such lines screaming out to be climbed? > > |
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7:47:36 AM |
On 12/05/2011 cogsy wrote: >Wendy's argument is that easy sport routes are usually too crap to be bolted.....come >on... are you really saying that EVERY easy trad route at arapiles and >the gramps is quality? >Go for a little walk around Mt York .... there are enough absolutely rubbish >easy old trad routes to last a lifetime! Good old Chris Baxter and his >crew must have put up enough complete rubbish to fill half a dozen guidebooks >(though there were obviously some classics too), and some of Ewbanks routes >are embarrassingly crap! >Even Frog Buttress has some tiny thrutching vegetated mank, and Yosemite >has miles of it! >Surely bumbly sport climbers have just as much right to climb completely >rotten piles of rubbish, just like trad climbers do? ;)) Go on, everything hero and eduardo have put up is classic! But really, if people want to put up mank on gear, it doesn't really effect anyone. Once you start lobbing bolts in mank, it's made a permanent impact. Although, there's been plenty of pox bolted at other grades too, i think the potential for nonpox easy sport is especially limited. Am i the only person seeing the massive slippery slope here? Bolting started as a way to protect things that couldn't be protected by gear. This did tend to be rather hard stuff. Somewhere along the line, a few people decided this was way easier than dealing with all that wiggly stuff and bolted the whole route. This still tended to be on harder, non protectable stuff. Then the odd european went bugger the odd gear placement and started lobbing bolts in the whole route regardless. And because most people don't climb desperately hard, a reasonable number of 18-24 sort of stuff got bolted. People started taking up climbing in greater numbers and deciding that all that trad stuff was silly and dangerous. Still, overall, sport routes and sport crags in Australia tend to be on steepish faces that are otherwise unprotected. And not being a massive anti bolting nazi, I'm really quite ok with that. A few routes have appear that are easier, but they aren't abundant for the myriad reasons discussed earlier. I do see a sequence of conveniencing climbing in this. And when people say, I choose not to place gear, and I think there should be more routes that i can climb, i have to wonder, where does this come from? I don't wander up to a crag and expect there to be exactly what I want to climb. I accept that there are only so many overhanging offwidths in the world. I'm not bitching that people aren't creating them for me. There may be a market for easy sport climbs, but we don't need to meet it. These people aren't prevented from climbing, they have options, they have made their choices, and there are just not the perfect routes for them everywhere. That's quite normal. Some people would like ski lifts to get them to the crag. Rap anchors on the top of every route. Being able to belay out of the car. All the mozzies to be DDTed. Beer stalls at the crag. Where do we stop? When there are plenty of good quality trad routes available, people are simply choosing not to do them because they don't want to learn trad, their choices are limiting them. You can search high and low for decent easy sport things, but it's just not going to compare to the number and quality of easy trad available, so do we really need to do it? I can't justify it in my head. Neil and Joe have both been community minded crag developers for a long time now. They have produced a lot of easyish sport routes between them, but they still haven't found this mythical really bloody easy sport crag. And the grey slab at Shipley was develop eons ago, yet more easy peasy stuff is just not appearing. No one's even saying, hey, you could put all these grade 12s up here, i just couldn't be bothered because I climb 10 grades harder then that. It's just not that hard to learn trad either. I was up at Kitten Wall the other day and some young boy just out of sport climbing asked me how I became confident to climb hard trad. It's just not an issue. Placing and trusting gear was what you did when i learnt to climb. How did it become such an issue that people won't even lead easy trad? |
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7:53:54 AM |
On 13/05/2011 davidn wrote: d. > > >Really? I'd say very differently. Like getting scared, spanked, technical >skills, hard work? then go ahead and push your grades. Like getting outdoors >and keeping fit and getting on rock, or just finding you're getting older >and more often injured? Go ahead and muck around on low grade climbs. > Like the technical difficulty of hard climbs without buggering around >with masses of protection? Go bouldering. I don't think anyone goes climbing without getting scared sometimes! Or discovering that this grade 12 is way harder than expected. That the weather's suddenly turned to crap and you're cold and miserable and try to get the fûck out of there in a hurry but still half way up a cliff. I personally don't really get off on getting scared. I would have thought that was obvious! But I accept that getting scared is part of the story. > >That's what I'd say. Like it or not, people do different things for different >reasons and in objective terms, there's nothing intrinsically better about >one style. Climbing is not about all the things you said above; it is >about those things for *you*. > >By the way, I'm actually quite sympathetic to your argument, which boiled >down is: > >'I grew up on trad, it's great, others should too' Well, there is a bit of that in there. Trad is not that bad and it's a totally real and feasable option for low grade climbers. But it's also about where we draw the line in making climbing what the masses want. > |
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8:11:19 AM |
I'd just like to recommend a really quality easy sport route I did in the Bluies a few weeks ago (not my route!). It's called Hypothermia and is on the Lunch Ledge at Pierces Pass. 20m grade 17 and features fantastic orange scoopy rock, sustained steepish climbing and lovely smooth jugs. Well bolted as well. This route was only done about 3 years ago and is right under the walking track that thousands of climbers have passed every year going to Mirrorball and Bucket Bunny.. To me this is a great case in point of a worthwhile easy sport route. Our party of three all agreed it was about 4 stars better than Big Trad Thong which was a total load of sandy nonsense (and gets 5 stars in the guide!!!). Wendy is right, trying to find an area suitable for new easy sport routes is almost nigh on impossible. The whole Tribute Wall area is the Grampians is about as close to one as I've found in that area. I should point out that many of those original Tribute Wall routes were actually partially or completely climbed on trad originally, but no one ever repeated them as people who went past were on their way to VD land with a sport rack. As soon as they got fully bolted they suddenly became popular. That's how the world works these days. There is certainly a lot of European sport climbers who don't 'do' trad visiting our shores these days. You may be surprised that not all of them can climb 9a. |
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8:15:17 AM |
I/My Girlfriend doesn't like placing gear. I/My Girlfriend just wants to feel safe. I/My Girlfriend likes to belay from the ground. I/My Girlfriend doesn't like to scramble around the long way. Your convenience is not a good reason to place bolts in our public spaces. Fuck your convenience. You are blindly skipping down a path that has no good end. |
| There are 182 messages in this topic. |
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