Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author

carabinas

chad

23-Sep-2008
9:07:12 AM

Im new to rock climbing and was wondering why rockclimbers prefer to use screw gate carabinas for life suppoert in top rope climbing rather than the tri lock carabinas? I do tree climbing for a job and its regulation to use tri lock carabinas as the screw gate can come undone easily.
cheers chad

DanNQ

23-Sep-2008
5:04:45 PM

If you have a screwgate biner that has a firm thread (not loose as some of the kong steelys can be) such as the faders steelys they are practically never going to come undone especially if theyre orientated correctly.

Whereas with the trilocks one hit in the right direction (slapping on rock at the culmination point of a toprope etc) and they will pop straight open.

Of course if you use 2 that are opposed reagrdless of the type this lessens the likelihood to highly unlikely and reduces rope drag.

wallwombat

23-Sep-2008
5:58:01 PM

You can always tie in when top-roping and not worry about a biner at all.

It's safe too. Hell, I'd even do it when I was leading!

Eduardo Slabofvic

23-Sep-2008
7:12:05 PM

errrr....ummmm.....what's a tri lock?

DanNQ

23-Sep-2008
8:12:03 PM

I thought he was refering to the biners at the top. I always tie in when climbing too - top rope and lead

Tri locks are the ones made by kong petzl etc that you need 3 actions to open. Slide the barrel up/push a button, twist and open.

Sabu

23-Sep-2008
8:15:47 PM

On 23/09/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>errrr....ummmm.....what's a tri lock?
Aren't they those ones that have a button, twist and pull down action hence the "tri"
lock? i never liked them...

stonetroll

23-Sep-2008
8:29:46 PM

I take it you're asking about 'crabs at the focal point of the top rope anchor, as you should be tyeing in with a Figure 8 knot through harness loops. I prefure useing 2 screw gates at the focal point for two reasons : (a) by orientateing the screw gates down { that is, with gates locked and screwed the screw bit is at the bottem } and gates on the same side ,then if through vibration one starts to undo, it tightens the other one whitch whence fully tight ,stops the afore mentioned from turning off any further but, gates can be apposeing and : (b) I can get lock gates that are nice and fat, in particular Omega "Jake" and their wide radious reduces wear on the rope.

wallwombat

23-Sep-2008
8:48:02 PM

I think he's talking about clipping into the rope with a screwgate on his harness.

Eduardo Slabofvic

23-Sep-2008
11:04:15 PM

On 23/09/2008 Sabu wrote:
>On 23/09/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>errrr....ummmm.....what's a tri lock?
>Aren't they those ones that have a button, twist and pull down action
>hence the "tri"
>lock? i never liked them...

If there the ones, then I love them and never use anything else. I hate the way "normal" twist locks snap
closed and locked automatically, as you need one hand to keep the locking mechanism open, one hand to
put the rope in, and one hand to hang on with.

I gave up on screw gates years ago.

Mammut used to make these beautiful ones, but now use the Petzl ones with the yellow gate and the little
green button. These go around and around until the button pops into place.

belayslave

24-Sep-2008
12:04:40 AM

This might be useful...

A link to a screwgate: (everyone knows what these are i assume, but assumptions are...)
Screwgate

A link to a twist lock style biner:
Twist
lock

A link to a tri-lock style biner:
Tri-
lock

A link to a ball-lock style biner:
Ball lock

----
My preference out of all of them is generally a tri lock. that said, the marjority of my rack is standard
screw gates of varying shapes and sizes. i have 1 twist lock (don't like using it much!), and 2 ball
locks which to me, are the most secure and least likely to come undone out of any i own.

wallwombat

24-Sep-2008
6:52:28 AM

Ah ha! That's a tri-lock.

I have a HB one. It is a pain in the arse to use and I hardly ever do.

I can see how they are very secure though, as I need three hands to open the thing.

I used to have one of those ball-lock biners. It was good. It got lost : (

muki

24-Sep-2008
9:47:50 AM

On 23/09/2008 DanNQ wrote:
Snip
>such as the faders steelys they are practically never going to come undone

If they can be done up by simply twisting, they can come undone, seen this happen often!
Once I have even seen a biner in the correct orientation come undone on an equipment lower ,where
the rope created a high speed vibration, that caused a sympathetic vibration in the locking gate,
causing it to spin in an upward direction, against gravity! a major reason for switching to Tri locks.

>Whereas with the trilocks one hit in the right direction (slapping on
>rock at the culmination point of a toprope etc) and they will pop straight
>open.

This I have never seen happen, the construction of the units makes it impossible!
I know this for a fact, as I have worked with these units as a high access tech for many years.

>Of course if you use 2 that are opposed reagrdless of the type this lessens
>the likelihood to highly unlikely and reduces rope drag

Rope drag! on a top rope ?

I think you need to go to a gear shop, and ask if you can see a tri lock, have a close look at it.
And in future don't commit yourself to such comments until you know the facts.

DanNQ

24-Sep-2008
7:42:30 PM

BP - I know what Im saying mate, the tri-lock that I am particularly talking about is the Kong http://www.rockhardware.com.au/Order.asp?Action=View&StockCode=KG9120004&MainGroup=Karabiners
You can replicate the action with your hand, picture holding the biner, gate facing you. Then strike the gate with a glancing downwards blow using the knife edge of your hand and it will open. Granted they wont do the reverse-vibrate open thingy that you have experienced but the action that will open it with your hand is not something that would be unlikely on the rock. Not impossible by a long stretch........

Im pretty sure the Kong biners are aimed at rope access types - as you mentioned - using gloves (less dexterity) and less likely to be slapped around rocks constantly - more likely to be used close to the harness or through purpose placed ring bolt anchors but I personally have played with them enough to favour other triple action biners in either situation - or maillon rapides.

In the case of Petzl Williams etc. (with the ball) I cant see anything happening that would open the gate and as mentioned they can be a pain in the arse to open intentionally!!

As for the rope drag point, I meant - what was mentioned in a later post - that it creates a greater radius and reduces the wear/angle that the rope passes through the culmination point (next best thing being a pulley) effectively reducing rope "drag" for the belay person.

I dont commit myself to such comments that easily, and wouldnt of had I not played around with the items myself.

muki

24-Sep-2008
8:15:24 PM

OK so you have opened it by striking it while holding it steady in your hand, if the rock contacted it, it
would be from one constant angle, and unable to replicate the downward needed to open it, even on
strech, so if it had rope weight (climber) then the biner would have to be oriented correctly, as the
cross loading situation would negate the gate contacting the rock! therefore if it was possible to open it
it would form a hook that held the rope in and the gate would fold over the rope internally further
preventing the rope from coming out!, it has got to be in the thousand to one odd range for it to open in
the first place, but say it did! then the rope is still secure!....... I feel that it can safely be said that it's
safe enough,
But I always use two at the focal point when running a top rope, and am still happy to use a single
steel biner for my self when tope roping, I have even used a single aloy biner, but feel better with steel
!
sorry if I came across as being harsh, but a lot of people on this site just say stuff without knowing the
facts, and I apologise if I've offended, no offence, I just wanted to make sure that you had a look at it
before saying they're unsafe, the more safe option would of course be an oval or D malion preferably
steel, but you can go into overkill quite easily on gear, and as I said even if open, the rope has little to
no chance of ever coming out of an open gate, unless there is no weight on the system and the gate
was stuck open, It's still in the thousand to one category, Cheers BP

DanNQ

30-Sep-2008
6:56:22 PM

Too easy mate, I know it would be a highly unlikely situation I was just throwing something out there that I was surprised to find out whilst playing around with a few different biners.

"Safe enough" is a good quote that I like out of John Longs latest climbing anchors book.

There are 15 messages in this topic.