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Carrot Bolts

steph

20-Oct-2007
10:23:07 AM

Just have a question about carrot bolts - here's the scenario:
Setting up a couple of safety points so we can fit signage safely on the sign shop where I work. Until recently we've been hanging quite dangerously over ledges installing heavy metal signs etc and now changing signs is gonna become more frequent. So I suggested fitting a couple of carrot bolts around the top wall and then use some of my old bolt plates and biners...

I have no idea about placing carrot bolts - do you drill and glue or just hammer in or what? The surfaces are concrete and timber. Can they work for both? Also likely costing & anything else I may need to be aware of.

Cheers all,
Steph

IdratherbeclimbingM9

20-Oct-2007
2:25:48 PM

Maybe I am not reading your post correctly, but it sounds like people will be hanging off these 'carrots' while changing signs.

An old rock mag had a lengthy article by Mike Law on the subject.
There is a definite 'art' to placing good carrots and the bolts require pre-filing tapers to match holes preferably drilled with two different size bits, (smaller size first to required depth, then larger diameter to a shallower depth for top of unfiled portion of bolt shank), then belt them in ...

If the usage is expected to be ongoing then I would be opting for 'proper' bolts rather than carrots.

For concrete I would be using glue-ins.

For timber you are probably better off pre-drilling a smaller diameter hole, then screwing in an appropriately rated, threaded eye bolt.

muki

20-Oct-2007
2:36:52 PM

A stainless steel bolt will need to to have a hole slightly larger than the bolt to be drilled into the concrete
and then glued in, there are threads you can search for the best brands, make sure you do a test batch
as you start to glue, so you know that the glue has gone off and that the glue is now dry, I'm remember
when I placed bolts that people had to depend on for their lives that they had to have a permit issued
by an engineer to say that the concrete was good enough and that the glue was the right one and that the
bolt was thick enough as well!, the timber is another story, if it was a solid piece of hardwood at least as
long as the bolt is and firmly atached to the building then use an expansion bolt, hopefully all bolts placed
would be in sheer load ie 90degrees to the pull force, not in line with the pull force, I would rather be on
the bolt in the concrete if I had a choice! BP

six-sevens

20-Oct-2007
9:45:46 PM

If you need to ask such questions should you actually be doing it?

Eduardo Slabofvic

21-Oct-2007
12:35:36 PM

What you’re suggestion may be fine for climbing, but is way below standard for a work place.

WARNING =- Product Placement ahead!

Forget carrots and glue ins, use Hilti Safe Rings. These are of industry standard, very easy to use and
when you’re finished, just unscrew them and put a scrim of cement over the top and you’ll never know
they were there. Faster than glue ins, easier to remove than glue ins, less opportunity to stuff them up
than glue ins.

TLockwood

21-Oct-2007
7:54:50 PM

On 20/10/2007 six-sevens wrote:
>If you need to ask such questions should you actually be doing it?

everyone has to start/learn somewhere, better to ask and find out whats involved and then leave it to others if unsure.

The good Dr

22-Oct-2007
7:10:59 AM

If it is a workplace you will need to conform to the current regulations (and get expert advice). Carrot bolts will not conform to the relevant Australian Standards for fall protection anchorages. You can PM me if you want more information.

nmonteith

22-Oct-2007
1:44:02 PM

I agree with the Good Dr! This is workplace issue - and you are leaving your employer WAY open to
negligence claims if you just do it yourself and something fails. Bash in carrots are certainly not suitable
for this application (carrots were placced because they were easy to handdrill, cheap and had low visibilty
- three requirements that are not needed for your suggested application). I'd imagine a chemical (glue) or
mechanical (expansion) bolt solution would probably work best (neither are suitable for wood).

steph

24-Oct-2007
9:14:26 AM

On 20/10/2007 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Maybe I am not reading your post correctly, but it sounds like people will
>be hanging off these 'carrots' while changing signs.

Not actually hanging off them, more just a safety point in the case of an accident while leaning out. My employer will either be doing the job himself or hiring the appropriate professionals, I'm just advising him on the best way to go so thanks for all ur responses.

>For timber you are probably better off pre-drilling a smaller diameter
>hole, then screwing in an appropriately rated, threaded eye bolt.

This option sounds the most appropriate. Shouldn't break the bank either.
Thanks everyone :) Steph

Post edit: Will also look into Hilti Safe Rings, thanx eduardo

nmonteith

24-Oct-2007
9:39:33 AM

On 24/10/2007 steph wrote:
>Not actually hanging off them, more just a safety point in the case of
>an accident while leaning out.

So, they will need to withstand a dynamic load as well since you will fall onto them unexpectantly! (ie
they need to be stronger than if you were just hanging off them)

The good Dr

24-Oct-2007
1:56:42 PM

On 24/10/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>On 24/10/2007 steph wrote:
>>Not actually hanging off them, more just a safety point in the case of
>>an accident while leaning out.
>
>So, they will need to withstand a dynamic load as well since you will
>fall onto them unexpectantly! (ie
>they need to be stronger than if you were just hanging off them)

Neill is correct here. The requirement for anchorage strength is 15kN for a single person fall arrest anchor. I would strongly suggest getting the right advice. Falls are the # 1 killer in industrial accidents. Getting injured or dying at work is really dumb, particularly as a result of saving a few $!

nmonteith

24-Oct-2007
2:15:01 PM

I just finsihed working on those new Workplace Safety government ads - quite relevent to this I think!
"Just climb up onto the roof without a harness and fall 10m to your death"

jgoding

25-Oct-2007
8:09:35 PM

Steph - May I suggest you speak to any of the following who will be able to offer professional advice on what meets current BCA (Building Code Of Australia) requirements:

1: Ian Anger - Direct Access Services (Phone: 0407 260 18, e-mail: ian.a@directaccessservices.com.au)
2: Jeff Little - Vertigo (03) 9322 4222
http://www.vertigo.net.au/portfolio/

FYI These guys are both very experienced climbers, and are total pros (with insurance). Any job they do won't go wrong, you can bet your life on it, as they and their staff will too.

Ian has recently specified an excellent, cost effective fall arrest system for a project of mine.

Keep in mind that the fall arrest system is more than the fixing point, it includes the harness, and connection to the fixing. They should all be suitably rated to withstand the BCA requirements.

Keep in mind that the limit states (ultimate braking load - which is what you see on karibiners, wires, cams etc) is not the same as the SWL (Safe Working Load) or WLL (Working load limit), which generally factors in a safety factor or either 3 or 4 (depending on the legal requirement).

In short - seek professional advice, and use professional fixings, designed, specified and installed by professionals.

It would be useful for you to be able to produce test results for the anchors as well, to prove that they actually conform to the design parameters. Sometimes (rarely) an installation does not go as planned, unless tested you'll never know. I know for sure that Vertigo has a number of nifty test units (HILTI ones) which you simply wind up and they tell you how much load the anchor is under.

Hope this helps.

Joe

steph

27-Oct-2007
5:09:55 PM

On 24/10/2007 The good Dr wrote:
>On 24/10/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>>On 24/10/2007 steph wrote:
>>>Not actually hanging off them, more just a safety point in the case
>of
>>>an accident while leaning out.
>>
>>So, they will need to withstand a dynamic load as well since you will
>>fall onto them unexpectantly! (ie
>>they need to be stronger than if you were just hanging off them)
>
>Neill is correct here.

Yea hence why i suggested climbing bolts and am asking the safety specifics of installing them... It's all good thanks everyone for imput, we are taking this thru professional chanels and we are aware of workplace safety requirements etc.

muki

27-Oct-2007
5:37:20 PM

No probs glad to be of help.

There are 15 messages in this topic.