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Snow/Ice Tools

shmalec

19-Jan-2004
11:59:44 AM

Folks,
I'm pondering the purchase of a set of technical ice tools. Want a general purpose technical tool for steep stuff in NZ and Euro. Quite like the look/feel of the DMM fly.
Any recommendations?
Alec.

Robb

19-Jan-2004
12:22:36 PM

hi alec
i had a fly tool. nice tool, quite light. few problems i found with it though. the pick and adze or pick and hammer are integrated (one piece) so if you bring a spare pick it is quite heavy and not as versatile. you need to buy either apick/adze or pick/hammer combo. also i found the picks are quite soft and get blunt easily.the rubber grip gets damaged and delaminates easliy. i just sold my 2 dmm tools 2nd hand to a friend who is just starting mountaineering.
generally though the tool works well for steep stuff and snow plods (plunges easily in hard snow).
ive had a pair of Black diamond rages for 2 years now and they rock. great in steep stuff. plunges easily, easy to change picks (a use other tool to tighten nuts). stainless steel head for durability and nice bit of weight in head. nice durable rubber grip.
there you have it - my suggestion.any questions let me know

Rob

shmalec

19-Jan-2004
1:27:15 PM

Thanks Rob, very useful info.They appear to be in a similar style, but I like the sound of the modular/stainless head and harder pick. Will go have a look/swing of one.

Richard

22-Jan-2004
5:11:03 PM

>Want a general purpose technical tool for steep stuff

Hmm, that's kind of a contradiction isn't it?

I have two DMM tools - a long straight general porpose axe, and a short curved technical hammer. The hammer is awesome on steep (vertical) stuff, it has a reverse curved pick, and the hammer head is a multi sized nut tool, for mixed climbing. Also, the base of the handle has a spike, angled such that the teeth of the spike line-up with the tip of the pick. So, when belaying on a steep wall, the tool sort of self wedges itself into the ice. The spike on the base of the handle has a hole in it so you can clip a karrabiner to it, and belay of the tool. Also, the top of the shaft has a slot for the rope to run through when doing a boot-belay using the axe. It also swings very nicley. The wrist loop also doen't use fancy plastic clips to tighten, but a noose arrangement, which I think is more ice-proof when on the slopes, compared to fancy plastic clips which work well in a nice heated shop.

Expensive but. Check the prices at the MEC online and cry....

If only araps was an ice climbing venue in winter. Maybe we can move it to tassie.....

Cheers

Paulie

4-Feb-2004
11:37:22 PM

For alpine climbing I have a pair of brand new (not so shiny any more tho!) Charlet Moser Aztars, they've taken the best parts of the Axar and the Quark and delivered a truly beautiful all-round tool. It plunges easily and has almost the same clearance as the Quark with the light weight of the Axar. I've had no troubles with them while dry-tooling or on water ice...need to practice your wrist flick tho because they are quite light in the head, once your wrist flick is mastered however, they penetrate deeply and very easily. They also have an integrated hammer/adze...maybe a downside, maybe not.

The Flys are also a great tool and a little heavier than the Aztar for a bit more Umph in hard water ice. They lack the shaft clearance of the Aztar, so expect bruised hands on steep ice. The one real downside when used as an alpine axe is that the pick creates this big lump under the palm of your hand while plunging...very annoying after 6 hours!

Others to look at are the Simond Naja (good tool, but the pick tends to lose hold when you draw level with it on steep ice, very disconcerting!), the DMM Predator (nice solid tool but a bit heavy IMO for alpine climbing), the older style BD rage (without the pinky ledge) and of course, if you can afford them, the best tools out there bar none (if they fit your hands) are BD Cobras...wicked tool at a wickedly high price.

Unless you can afford the Cobras, I've found that you almost need 2 sets of tools, one for alpine and general purpose, then another for ice fall climbing. I'm going to Norway in 2 weeks to climb some real ice falls, so I can let you know how the Aztars go on very steep, long routes.

Hope that helps!

Paulie

mousey

5-Feb-2004
6:44:54 PM

hey guys
im a bit of a newbie to the ice scene (ive done a lot of going down sideways but not much going up) and im looking for an axe which i can use as a general walking axe but then whip out a sister for it to get technical- any recommendations as to good hybrids?

Paulie

5-Feb-2004
10:57:57 PM

Grivel make the Air Tech Evolution... http://www.grivel.com/menu/en/main.html pretty cool tool, I'd reckon you could get up some steep stuff with it using a 2nd tool.

Paulie

7-Feb-2004
12:01:40 AM

Bit more info for you, this has been gleaned from: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00279.html

--------------------
Climbing Gear
Alpinists will cheer at the 2003 introduction of a 9.2 mm single rope in the U.S. this year - the Mammut Revelation. Combined with a thin rappel rope, this provides the lightest dual rope setup for alpine climbing. The 55 g/m x 60 m Revelation has the ability to shave a few pounds off your current single rope setup while still maintaining a 5-fall (UIAA #101) rating. Because the Revelation does not pass the sharp edge fall (UIAA #108) test, it is best suited for steep alpine face and couloir climbing with little risk of vertical falls over sharp edges.

Alpine ice tools are getting lighter, too. The constant battle for developing lightweight tools that appeal to alpinists but provide the technical performance of more demanding climbs continues to rage. Grivel and Petzl-Charlet are leading the way with technical ice tools that break the 22 ounce barrier. Grivel's Light Wing and Petzl-Charlet's Aztar tools have bent shafts suitable for plunging as well as hammering pitons, excellent swing balance (always a challenge with lighter tools). We tried both sets of tools at a recent ice festival and were even pleased with their performance on hard, brittle waterfall ice and mixed ground.

No longer does the alpinist need to lug around technical crampons that weigh 38 ounces or more for remote ice and mixed climbs. Petzl-Charlet has introduced the Petzl-Charlet Sarken, an alpine crampon with a low-balling horizontal rail design and integrated forged vertical front points. We've tried them on alpine ice couloirs in the Beartooths, mixed ground at Hyalite, and the bullet hard ice of the Canadian Rockies, and can unequivocally say that we are more excited about this technical development for alpine climbing than any other introduced in 2003. The Sarken's are an alpinists dream. Oh yeah, we forgot to mention the weight: 29 ounces. Where else can you maintain performance while saving more than half a pound?
------------------------------

Hmmmm, and I just bought some new G14s too... :S

vwills

24-Feb-2004
5:50:37 PM

Thought I'd put a word in for the DMM Fly. Took my brand new Fly and general purpose (DMM viper) to NZ this summer. They're now not so shiny. Really liked the swing and design of the Fly. No sore knuckles. They've held up well with all the schist scrabbling that goes on between the snow bits.
But I think you have to go and swing a few ice tools and see what feels right for your build and style.

shmalec

2-Mar-2004
12:53:35 PM

Managed to borrow a CM tool to complement my old hammer for this years trip. Did the NZ job quite nicely and saved myself $700 (at least this year). Currently in mountaineering emotion state 4 - just come back and thinking of retiring to comfortable araps for the rest of my career. :) Bit better ratio of climbing to non climbing days. Will probably get over it and be looking for some new tools again in 8 months time. So thanks everyone.
Think I concluded that the rage is too bent, the head and pick of the fly are a bit soft and the CM tools have just the right bend and are indestructable. So I'll be looking at some of them if I come out of retirement.
As far as the light general alpine walking axe goes, I have a Grivel air tech and really like it. Its very light and very comfy to hold (and if you buy it in italy it only costs 100 bucks!).

mrsnuffy

8-Mar-2004
2:51:07 PM

I also have a pair of technical DMM fly tools, and a DMM Raptor 60cm straight shaft, classic styled pick. First used this summer in NZ alps. I was very happy with these tools however I also noticed the rubber hand-grip peeling back on the Raptor after plunging into hard snow (nothing some duct tape didn't fix). The thing that continues to attract me to these tools is their solid construction and no-nonsense design. I notice that the same bolt spacing is used on both the Raptor and Fly meaning that you could swap to having a long-shafted tool with a reverse curved pick - possibly the closest thing you'll get to a "general purpose technical tool for steep stuff", if such a thing exists.

Paulie

8-Mar-2004
9:58:02 PM

Ok, as promised, an axe review!

I have just spent the last few days in Rjukan (Norway) climbing waterfall ice. Very cold hard and brittle ice on a few routes. My CM Aztars were brilliant, they lacked a little bit of weight in the head and consequently had a bit of vibration but generally only in very hard ice, their light weight meant that even after 40+mtrs of sustained grade IV I still wasn't all that tired.

On the whole, they stick like demons and they climbed very much like the CM Quarks. The B rated picks need a bit of modification\shaping, but are brilliant and penetrate easily and deeply into even super hard ice.

My g\f was using DMM Flys and they vibrated like crazy in the hard blue ice, good stick from the picks in softer ice though.

Hope that helps a bit!

ant

1-Sep-2004
6:47:12 PM

Had a look at the Petzl-Charlet Sarken crampons last week. Very light, easy to attach and 'look the goods'.

Has anybody heard any reports on how these perform, especially with regard to durability?

JBM

1-Sep-2004
7:34:39 PM

My mate climbed with them in Peru and bent the tang on the first climb stamping in a picket. Also, the plastic bit on the binding and anti balling plated (built in) have had their issues (cracking). Keep in mind this is the first generation of the product - best to wait til next season and pick up the next batch once they have worked out some of the production kinks.

Re: Ice tools (original thread)

I have a both a pair of the BD Cobras and the Petzl Aztars. Both very good for their purpose. No tools swings like a pair of cobras on the steep vertical (re: WI4+). Zero vibration and perfect weighting. They work in an alpine environment as well - plunge easily but are a bit heavy for anything at altitude. I recently got a pair of the Aztars for long snow/alpine face routes. They climb extremely well (even on the vertical) and are super light. They plunge a bit better than the cobras since the grip is not as wide, and the insulation on the grip is a nice bonus. However, the pick attachment is a bit shite. you need tools to replace the picks whereas on the BD tools you can use the other tool to remove the picks. My guess is they did this to save weight. Additionally, ditch the Freelock leashes, they are crap. Get a pair of BD lock downs or androids depending on your climbing style.

Verdict: Value for money, the Aztars are good quality and nice all around work horses. I got mine from Rock Hardware for $250each. One other option might be the BD Shrikes or Rages if you are looking for a better pick attachment system.

But at the end of the day, if your game is steep frozen stuff as opposed to alpine snow/ice - nothing beats the Cobras (Can I get a Halleleuja from the Choir?!?)

Also, spend the money on a pair of ice tools and an ice axe. Don't try and climb the vertical stuff with your axe either - most of the picks on them are shite for that purpose.

Romfrantic

2-Sep-2004
9:45:05 AM

Have to agree there with Paulie and JBM, the Petzl-Charlet Aztars are awesome! ...so lightweight, none of this forearm burns halfway up the ice ;-) ....the Freelock leashes took a bit getting used to, yes, but overall I thought the concept/design is quite clever and I now like it. Overall, really nice tools. Very happy with them.

Paulie

10-Sep-2004
10:08:13 PM

Definately 2nd the motion for ditching the freelock leashes, they are crap. You get an joyous cry from this side for the BD Cobras...easily THE best tools for steep stuff - unless you prefer leashless, then it's a whole new ball game!

I'm in the middle of working out how to design some sort of folded steel/aluminium head weight for my Aztars. Anyone engineers out there have any suggestions?? (not duct tape!)

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