Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
Author
self belaying
paul grimmett
19-Jan-2006
9:11:11 AM
I have been looking at ways to climb safely without a partner ( obviously I prefer to climb with a partner, it is just not always possible). I have read nunmerous things on self belaying devices but I was wondering if anyone can see a problem witht setting up and anchor system at the top of the climb ( as in like a top rope or belay station) and connecting a stationary dynamic rope to this anchor. Then tie in a series of knots ( say alpine butterflies) every 1.5 - 2 metres. On your harness you have two long slings with caribiners at the ends. As you ascend the climb you alternate clipping these into the pre-tied knots above (like you are clipping into a hanger)and unclipping from the knot below (so you don't drag the whole rope up with you). With this you are almost always connected in at two points and will only take a max 3 - 4 metres fall ( no different to lead climbing). I would appreciated any feedback.

Cheers
Paul
mikepatt
19-Jan-2006
9:20:59 AM
My simple advice is don't do it Paul.. even a short fall onto a sling can generate excessive shock loading on the system, the harness and youreslf.

I suggest you use a self belay device instead
paul grimmett
19-Jan-2006
9:31:53 AM
Thanks Matt,
Is the shock loading because the sling is not dynamic? Other than that the shock applied would be the same as in a lead fall wouldnt it? What if a few lengths of dynamic rope were used intsead of slings? I am not dismissing your comments just exploring it some more.

skink
19-Jan-2006
9:34:57 AM
Risks I see which you would need to take into account before doing this:

As you get closer to the top, the impact force on the anchors would increase should you fall (less and less dynamic rope in between you and the anchors) - using shock-absorbing quickdraws either on the anchors or incorporated into the slings may be a solution.

Crossloading of biners at the ends of the slings - easily dealt with by clove hitching the biners into the slings or using rubber bands to hold biners in the proper orientation.

Should you fall and get flipped by a sling behind the leg or bring rock down on yourself, get knocked unconcious and end up hanging from the harness with no one about to help, you will die fairly quickly - this is the aspect I find most scary should I decide to do this. Solution would be to do this with people knowledgeable in the science of rope rescue at hand - but then they could just belay you in the normal fashion so this is probably no solution!

HM33
19-Jan-2006
9:40:49 AM
a friend of mine has used this method in the past. has its limitations but he said it worked quite well.

Dalai
19-Jan-2006
10:14:39 AM
I have used a very similar method many years ago, but only a few times.

It was only used on easier climbs, so allowing the extra margin to mess around with clipping and unclipping (would have soloed if not for my concern for the rock quality)

Only difference with what you are suggesting is I used three slings (meaning always had two clipped at all times) Having only two means you will be only on one at the swap.

If you plan on self belaying a bit, definitely better methods using a self belay device. I would only use this method as a last resort.
NEVERCLIMBED32
20-Jan-2006
1:00:33 PM
On 19/01/2006 andesite wrote:

>Should you fall and get flipped by a sling behind the leg or bring rock
>down on yourself, get knocked unconcious and end up hanging from the harness
>with no one about to help, you will die fairly quickly - this is the aspect
>I find most scary should I decide to do this. Solution would be to........


The solution is to use a chest harness so should this occur you will at least end up in an upright position.
dave
21-Jan-2006
8:18:28 PM
Easiest way is to get a grigri and just haul in the slack as u climb up. Both these methods assume pretty easy climbs where a fall is pretty unlikely anyway...

belayslave
21-Jan-2006
11:27:31 PM
I would strongly advise against using a Grigri as your self belay device of choice. There are many more
devices out there which are specifically designed for the purpose of self belaying. Here are a few links to
articles regarding the issue.
I think that if you have to use the method of clipping and re-clipping pre-tied knots on the rope 3
slings is definately the way to go. But this method is as mentioned already a last resort when it comes to
soloing.

I believe there has been a forum topic on this previously either here on Chockstone or at
Rockclimbing.com

http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/advanced.htm#trsolo
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/advanced.htm#leadsolo
http://www.therockzone.co.uk/therockzone/selfbelay.html
-----
Edit: Click on the link below then below the message that appears click "View Thread". Couldn't work out
how to get a link to the whole thread.
Self Belaying

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22-Jan-2006
7:20:29 PM
With a zyper system (similar to via-ferrata-use), the concept you describe should work OK, but this assumes a dynamic backup rope is used.
You would possibly find the regularly preplaced clippable knots at inconvenient clipping points on many difficult climbs. This would lead to some interesting runouts.

An alternative is to have the backup rope clipped to you and a 'running' clove hitch to your belay krab/s on your harness used, (again assumes dynamic backup rope used).
This is a cheap tried and true method, ... but not without its hassles of runouts vs slack / tight rope at point of crux etc.

damon23
29-Jan-2006
7:07:44 AM
I've been told being knocked unconcious in your standard harness you have about 5mins before your dead from lack of blood flow. Self-belay device or not, your f---ing nuts climbing alone.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
29-Jan-2006
8:39:09 AM
On 29/01/2006 damon23 wrote:
>I've been told being knocked unconcious in your standard harness you have
>about 5mins before your dead from lack of blood flow. Self-belay device or not, your f---ing nuts climbing alone.

This is not strictly true (today) because when this theory was put forward the standard harness (at that time, ie the mid-late 1960's) was simply a waistloop.
There are/were ways around this.
Wear a 'sit-sling' (legloops).
Wear a chest harness.
Wear a helmet.

Modern harnesses incorporate legloops and are well padded so I doubt the 5 minute timeframe applies and IMO deep vein thrombosis would likely be more of a worry.

>climbing alone.
Solo in any form has its risks ...
...but that is also part of its attraction for some, from both a mental and technical perspective.

I note from your posts and profile that you are interested in top-roping. Even this can be done solo if you ever develop the inclination, ... (and thought the risk of being knocked unconscious was minimal?).

rodw
29-Jan-2006
9:47:18 AM

>This is not strictly true (today) because when this theory was put forward
>the standard harness (at that time, ie the mid-late 1960's) was simply
>a waistloop.
>There are/were ways around this.
>Wear a 'sit-sling' (legloops).
>Wear a chest harness.
>Wear a helmet.

Also not strictly true, there was a study done in the US a few years back (I think usa speleo club) and they had test, (cant remember specifics) were they had guys hanging around not moving in harnesses to see effect. Some of them passed out after in pretty small time franes ie 10 minutes as the leg loops cut of blood flow from the femoral atteries. This isn't normally a problem when your moving but if you got knocked out with no support it definately becomes an issue
pharmamatt
29-Jan-2006
3:20:05 PM
On 29/01/2006 damon23 wrote:
>I've been told being knocked unconcious in your standard harness you have
>about 5mins before your dead from lack of blood flow. Self-belay device
>or not, your f---ing nuts climbing alone.

it's called harness hang syndrome and i think it's pretty well known with cavers. a significant amount of your total blood volume is stuck in your legs, meaning your heart can't provide enough blood pressure to supply the brain with fresh blood. and i think there is a few studies floating about (try google or medline)

tepas
29-Jan-2006
5:01:48 PM
On 21/01/2006 dave wrote:
>Easiest way is to get a grigri and just haul in the slack as u climb up.
>Both these methods assume pretty easy climbs where a fall is pretty unlikely
>anyway...

Petzl would have something to say about this. The gri-gri is an auto-locking belay device but from what I've seen, Petzl strongly recommends keeping a hand on the brake rope at all times.

Gri-gris aren't failsafe - I've taken a pretty decent fall due to rope slipping through a gri-gri until my belayer managed to stop it.

If you want to climb on your own, boulder. But even then, best stay indoors as there's just too many ways to get hurt climbing outdoors, and you really want _someone_ with you if you do!

Hatman
29-Jan-2006
9:50:32 PM
I heard that it wasn't so much the hanging inactive in the harness that killed you but the release of a build up in toxins from the legs after the constriction is removed resulting in the person going into shock and death.

but wada i know im just a engineer (pretending to climb!)

belayslave
29-Jan-2006
11:28:58 PM
There are two main risks for HHS (harness hang syndrome). firstly that the which has been pointed out of
the blood being trapped in the legs and not enough oxygenated blood getting to the essential areas of the
body. Secondly as Hatman noted, a risk to when someone has been suspened in a harness whist not
moving for an extended period of time, is that the toxins released into the body may lead to shock or
death.
It is suggested that people who have been hanging in a harness not moving, when on solid ground, placed
in the foetal position and there legs straigtend slowly so as it gradually allows the blood and toxins to get
abosrbed, rather then shock loading your system with one big dose.
NB! I am no expert in the matter and am only transferring on what i have read after doing some research.
An depth and medically technical document (116 pages) is an interesting read. if anyone is interested
send me an email and i'll pass it on. I'm not sure where i found it (somehwere on the web) but it's dated
2002.

DaCrux
30-Jan-2006
12:15:39 AM
OMG! Climbing is dangerous! :-D http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2002/crr02451.pdf
Haven't read the whole report - seems more like a literature review of really old articles/studies - there is no mention of the research method etc. and not sure how conclusions were reached - scientifically the whole study isn't worth the paper it's written on (or rather website). I think we should conduct our own randomised controlled trial - any volunteers?

belayslave
30-Jan-2006
7:58:43 AM
Well you can ignore my last post about emailing the document... DaCrux found the link for it. And you're
exactly right DaCrux, it is only a compilation and evaluation of older research projects. But still relevant
non the less.

DaCrux
30-Jan-2006
1:31:12 PM
I actually read the whole report last night – not sure why I bothered. The referencing is so poor the guy could easily get in trouble tor plagiarism, he’s using secondary sources which quote studies he’s already included, his literature search consisted of getting articles/studies from his mates – so I’m sure there’s no bias (right), he’s confusing different medical conditions – e.g. postural hypotension with venous pooling and finally the literature he reviewed is conflicting – so you cannot really draw any conclusions. Different types of harnesses are used with different attachment points, some articles review data about early mountaineers who just tied the rope around their chest. Some of the studies indicate respiratory obstruction rather than harness hang syndrome, and some of the reviews of accidents indicate shock/hypothermia. In the “controlled studies” different people had different reactions, some developed high blood pressure/pulse some low blood pressure. It seems that “harness hang syndrome” does exist – but it’s not clear what causes it, how quickly it occurs and what the treatment should be. To illustrate how bad this report is read paragraph 3 on page 3 which claims that Christ died of orthostatic shock on the cross – what the?!

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
There are 25 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints