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Help with my opposing nuts problem

frostex

30-Jan-2013
9:12:19 PM

A few weeks ago climbing (I think it was at the youies, i honestly cant remember which day, or crag it was at, let alone the route!) I got stumped and was sitting there for a few minutes trying to work it out.

Horizontal crack, slotted in perfectly and was a bomber placement for downwards/upwards pull, left pull, and forwards (away from the wall) pull. Unfortunately my climb veered a little right of the placement, so i thought no worries ill just stick in something else that's a little to the left simply to stop it popping out from rope drag. The only thing in reach was a vertical crack slotted for upwards and left/right pull. Slot it in, then usually i would either do a sliding X, or 1 or 2 clove hitches to keep everything tensioned where it needs to be. This is where it became a problem -

The wires were about 5mm too far apart to clip with 1 carabiner, and if i used 2 carabiners there was too much play room to keep the top nut in place. In the end, i "set" them as hard as i could, and just put a long sling through to the quick draw but i still wasnt happy. In hindsight i think i could have clove hitched them with the sling directly on the bottom wire (no biner), as it was only necessary to keep left tension against rope drag and any fall wouldnt have applied load on the sling or bottom wire. At the time i was just thinking "slings dont go on wires, it'll cut straight through"

What would you have done??

Here's a picture to help understand:

IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Jan-2013
9:33:54 PM

>What would you have done??

There is likely more than one suitable answer to your question, but the first that comes to my mind is put a krab on each wire and then use a clove hitch on a longish-sling connecting to the rope to cinch both those krabs into one captive arrangement.

The second possibility that comes to mind is using a bigger nut in opposition, so that it lodges securely further away from the primary nut, and then cinching with a clove hitched sling as above, to possibly have less slack in the matrix.

A third possibility (based purely on your schematic representation of the situation), is to clip the 'useless for downward load' nut first with possibly no sling, ie clip it directly to the rope, then put a long sling on the primary piece and clip it below the directional nut. This would result in the directional performing it's task and in the event of a fall the loose-sling primary nut would still take the load. In this last case the distances would have to be carefully judged so that mishap was not invited into the scenario(!), unless of course, the long sling from the primary nut was simply passed through the krab on the directional nut (not clipped to the rope*), rather than clipped or cinched onto it...
(*This could result indropping of the directional nut & krab in the event of a fall unless a retaining loop is added to the mix!)

Post edit:
I added further to my original reply while you replied to what I had originally posted, without my knowing it. ~> This may lead to some confusion of outcome!

frostex

30-Jan-2013
9:39:35 PM

That is my usual course of action for opposing. carabiner on each wire, then clove hitch them to keep tension. But as i previously mentioned "The wires were about 5mm too far apart to clip with 1 carabiner, and if i used 2 carabiners there was too much play room to keep the top nut in place."

in regards to a bigger nut, off the top of my head im pretty sure that was the only thing that fit decently within reach. I was sitting there for about 3 minutes i recon trying to work out what the hell i could do, or place anywhere else.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Jan-2013
9:51:34 PM

On 30/01/2013 frostex wrote:
>The wires were about 5mm too far apart to clip with 1 carabiner, and if i used
>2 carabiners there was too much play room to keep the top nut in place."
>

Another option would be to krab both nuts individually and simply clove hitch a longish sling to one krab, then using a second clove hitch (on the same sling), to the second krab, suitably located to take as much slack out of the system as possible then add a third krab to the remaining loop to clip the rope too.
If there was any slack in the matrix, I would bias it towards the directional rather than the primary nut.
The key to integrity would be using a long sling, as this solves most rope drag situations...

anthonycuskelly

30-Jan-2013
9:58:57 PM

Depending on the placement location, sometimes it'll work if you clip both wires to one biner, then place them (it sometimes gives a little more space than placing then clipping).

There's a few different jiggery-pokery options involving weird redirects I can think of, but none of them are great. I probably would just have done what you did though, a long sling solves a lot of issues.

One Day Hero

30-Jan-2013
10:06:22 PM

The main reason I bought a set of small cams is so that I wouldn't have to arse around with this sort of bullshit anymore.

frostex

30-Jan-2013
10:10:46 PM

On 30/01/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>A third possibility (based purely on your schematic representation of
>the situation), is to clip the 'useless for downward load' nut first with
>possibly no sling, ie clip it directly to the rope, then put a long sling
>on the primary piece and clip it below the directional nut. This would
>result in the directional performing it's task and in the event of a fall
>the loose-sling primary nut would still take the load. In this last case
>the distances would have to be carefully judged so that mishap was not
>invited into the scenario(!), unless of course, the long sling from the
>primary nut was simply passed through the krab on the directional nut (not
>clipped to the rope*), rather than clipped or cinched onto it...
>(*This could result indropping of the directional nut & krab in the event of a
>fall unless a retaining loop is added to the mix!)

Thats a really cool idea, ive never thought of that before. I'm going to play around with this at home a little to see exactly how it would work and be created. However in this very specific scenario, i dont think it would have worked as i forgot to mention that the lower nut wouldnt really stay in without cinching it with the top nut. And as soon as 2 crabs are in play, they dont cinch tight enough.

I still feel like the only thing that would have worked well is a sling girth hitched directly onto the bottom nut, despite always been taught not to do that. as i needed the precice length of 1 biner + 5mm, any longer and they could pop out.

In saying all this, the method i used - I just "set" it as hard as i could then attached the longest sling i have on me, did seem to work. I'm just not happy because i feel like it could have been a bomber placement, instead of something i was rather dubious about.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Jan-2013
10:14:59 PM

On 30/01/2013 frostex wrote:
>I'm just not happy because i feel like it could have been a bomber placement, instead
>of something i was rather dubious about.

~> Therein is the stuff of bold run-outs and folklore regarding such routes!
;-)

I think you may be getting hung up on making every placement perfect. Although this is a preferred option, as you have found, it does not always come to pass, and the art of making placements that have integrity for the intended task is what some climbers consider to be a strong essence of the game we play.
Not all routes are safe, nor need they be...

frostex

30-Jan-2013
10:30:08 PM

On 30/01/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>~> Therein is the stuff of bold run-outs and folklore regarding such routes!
>;-)

Haha yep!

>I think you may be getting hung up on making every placement perfect.
>Although this is a preferred option, as you have found, it does not always
>come to pass, and the art of making placements that have integrity for
>the intended task is what some climbers consider to be a strong essence
>of the game we play.

That description is actually the opposite of how i am when im actually climbing. But in my living room, when all i think about throughout the week is shit like this. I find it pretty fun looking for perfect solutions, or solutions to really obtuse problems. Then hopefully when im on the rock, im somewhat prepared for any situation. But really im the furthest from anal / perfectionist when on the rock.

Thanks for all the great ideas guys. Keep them coming.

Note; Cams are heavy and expensive, and often wont fit where wires will! (but i still carry a set)

One Day Hero

30-Jan-2013
11:00:27 PM

On 30/01/2013 frostex wrote:
>Note; Cams are heavy and expensive, and often wont fit where wires will!
>(but i still carry a set)

Yeah, when I first got a rack I didn't have any small cams, so I was all into the opposing wire nonsense too. Don't get me wrong, it's good to learn how to do all the little tricks. However, standing at a stance for 15 mins geeking out over some fiddly arrangement of gear isn't as good as climbing fast and doing more routes.

tris

31-Jan-2013
9:00:41 AM

It's an interesting problem. I have a possible solution, but it's not elegant (or necessarily recommended).

You could clip a quickdraw into the lower directional nut, clip a single biner into the upper primary nut and then clip the single biner directly into the upper biner of the quickdraw (badly drawn MS paint diagram below to help with my explanation). You would probably want to weigh down the quickdraw with some extra gear (if you can) to prevent any of the biners from rotating so their gates are loaded.

There are downsides with this setup, such as having a biner clipped directly to another biner, but it does eliminate some of the issues you would have with the extra length added by using two biners with a clove hitched sling.

What do you think? Too dodgy? Or better than the originally marginal piece?

Climboholic

31-Jan-2013
1:09:48 PM

If the wires were 5mm too far apart you could thread each wire through the loop of the other (the same technique used to read slightly out of reach nut placements, sort of like a reef knot).

Then you can clip the primary nut and the other one is still firmly secured.

Let me know if don't get what I'm saying and I can draw a picture.

There are 12 messages in this topic.