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Etiquette on dropped gear


Jahmz

9-Nov-2011
8:59:45 AM

I recently had a friend drop a quickdraw while cleaning a climb after me. I understand, it happens. but where do we stand on replacement gear, for me the rule has always been you drop it you replace it, but what if that piece is no longer made, or the other person disagrees?


rodw

9-Nov-2011
9:09:20 AM

Wtf..as you say that happens, part and parcel of having gear IMHO....asking a climbing partner to replace it seem ludicrous....and seriously Id still use it...also if its no longer made how old is it??? might have been time for retirement anyway.


Phil Laukens

9-Nov-2011
9:09:29 AM

I've dropped gear while seconding and replaced it with something as good or even better. Ideally the leader should communicate this etiquette to the second before they first climb together. Also by having to replace dropped gear you get in the habit of treating the gear as if it was your own

widewetandslippery

9-Nov-2011
9:15:15 AM

Did they drop it and lose it or did it just get dropped?

citationx

9-Nov-2011
9:15:40 AM

Someone mentioned that the concept of microfractures has been proven to be a myth. Therefore if someone drops it, unless it's actually visibly damaged, I just keep on using it.

postedit: hairline/micro - whatever fractures :-P


ado_m

9-Nov-2011
9:59:47 AM

I think it's good etiquite to offer to replace, but you get to keep the dropped piece.
It's then good etiquite for the leader to say don't bother, unless you dropped it a really really long way.

Most of my rack has been dropped or abused in some horrible way. In terms of risk, my dodgy placements, poor stamina, shaking elvis legs, loose rock, seaguls, hangovers, poor belayers, poor communication, root finding, sun faded slings, route finding and plenty of other things are more likely to get me killed than some theoretical micro fracture....I'm not an engineer though so what do I know...

maxdacat

9-Nov-2011
9:59:58 AM

I think back in the day when people worried about "hairline fractures" there may have been a case for the dropped it bought it argument. I hear that this has been disproven and that metal gear is suprisingly resilient....not sure how i'd feel though if someone dropped some of my biners of El Cap.


rodw

9-Nov-2011
10:06:54 AM

Better the biner than dropping you :)


jahmz

9-Nov-2011
10:11:38 AM

someone mentioned? I'm not going to put my life in the hands of something someone remembered someone mentioning. do you have a link to the research? I have been looking around, petzel and BD seem to say that dropped gear is retired gear but they are probably just covering their own arse. I understand the science behind micro-fractures, and they are far from a myth, what is debatable is weather they can lead to yielding in 6000/7000 series aluminium that most carabiners are made of. Because this alloy is so soft compared to brittle steel, its likely that high stress points don't occur at the tip of a micro-fracture.

Likely, but not guaranteed.

it could all depend on the design or the carabiner and the location of the start of a fracture.

this is what I was taught in engineering anyway. if its a steel biner, the risk is multiplied significantly. high strength steel is very prone to brittle fracture.

In total I agree with Phil, especially with new climbers, It teaches new climbers to respect gear more.

the piece was dropped about 15m onto rock. if it was dirt I would brush it off and rack it.

dave

9-Nov-2011
10:22:35 AM

On 9/11/2011 jahmz wrote:
>someone mentioned? I'm not going to put my life in the hands of something
>someone remembered someone mentioning. do you have a link to the research?

Out of interest are there any recorded cases of gear failure due to micro-fractures? I've never heard of any. Surely if this was actually a problem it would have lead to accidents?


Sabu

9-Nov-2011
10:29:31 AM

I think it depends on where you are at with your climbing and gear. I remember when was starting out I was very precious about my gear simply because it took so long so save and build up a usable rack (as a high school student). I'd be shattered at losing a few pieces and did occasionally use the line "you drop it you replace it" (but more so to enforce a respect for gear than anything else).

Now having been climbing for so many years you come to expect gear to be abused dropped, lost etc as its all part of the game and in the worst case a good excuse to visit the gear store and replace it with something shiny!

gfdonc

9-Nov-2011
10:30:30 AM

Get yer Google goggles out guys:
Quoting a chockstone posting in 2003:
Then there is this: from "Rock and Ice - Gear" (page 46)

"Conventional wisdom says that a carabiner that has been dropped must be retired, even when there are no signs of damage. Perhaps not.
In a test conducted by REI, thirty carabiner bodies (half ovals, half Ds) were each dropped six times onto a concrete floor from a height of 33 ft. (10 m). Following the drops, their open-gate strength was measured and compared to thirty control samples from the same production batch that had not been dropped. The statistical result was no loss of strength.
According to Chris Harmston, the quality assurance manager at Black Diamond, “I have test-broken hundreds of used, abused, and dropped ‘biners (even some that fell 3000 ft. (1000 m) from the top of the Salathe Wall on El Capitan). Never have I noticed any problem with these unless there is obvious visual damage to the ‘biner. While somewhat reassuring, this does not give you carte blanche to use carabiners that have been dropped a significant distance. Immediately retire any carabiner that is crooked, has deep indentations, or has a gate that doesn’t operate smoothly."

vonClimb

9-Nov-2011
10:31:57 AM

A few years ago a dropped a quick drawer off a 100m cliff. Obviously it was to never be used again.

However I ran into a guy who works for metolius in oregon. His job is quality control of beaners and cams. When these are manufactured he would inspect the metal components under microscope looking for any of these microfractures greater than some critical size. If found they would either try recover the part or throw it out.

I gave him my draw to have a look at and he immediately spotted a small indent on one of the beaners that looked dubious. He said it was especially bad because it was on the inner edge of the beaner which gets loaded in tension and hence pulls any microcracks open.

Food for thought.

maxdacat

9-Nov-2011
11:02:57 AM

On 9/11/2011 gfdonc wrote:
> dropped ‘biners (even some that fell 3000 ft. (1000 m) from the top of the Salathe Wall on El Capitan). Never have I noticed any problem with these unless there is obvious
>visual damage to the ‘biner.

I stand corrected!


ado_m

9-Nov-2011
11:06:10 AM

Simply because you took the newbie climbing with your gear, and he dropped from a good 10M+, I think out of courtesy he should offer to replace, regardless of the science.


Sabu

9-Nov-2011
11:45:07 AM

>"Conventional wisdom says that a carabiner that has been dropped must
>be retired, even when there are no signs of damage. Perhaps not.
>In a test conducted by REI, thirty carabiner bodies (half ovals, half
>Ds) were each dropped six times onto a concrete floor from a height of
>33 ft. (10 m). Following the drops, their open-gate strength was measured
>and compared to thirty control samples from the same production batch that
>had not been dropped. The statistical result was no loss of strength.
>According to Chris Harmston, the quality assurance manager at Black Diamond,
>“I have test-broken hundreds of used, abused, and dropped ‘biners (even
>some that fell 3000 ft. (1000 m) from the top of the Salathe Wall on El
>Capitan). Never have I noticed any problem with these unless there is obvious
>visual damage to the ‘biner. While somewhat reassuring, this does not give
>you carte blanche to use carabiners that have been dropped a significant
>distance. Immediately retire any carabiner that is crooked, has deep indentations,
>or has a gate that doesn’t operate smoothly."
>

On 9/11/2011 vonClimb wrote:
>A few years ago a dropped a quick drawer off a 100m cliff. Obviously it
>was to never be used again.
>
>However I ran into a guy who works for metolius in oregon. His job is
>quality control of beaners and cams. When these are manufactured he would
>inspect the metal components under microscope looking for any of these
>microfractures greater than some critical size. If found they would either
>try recover the part or throw it out.
>
>I gave him my draw to have a look at and he immediately spotted a small
>indent on one of the beaners that looked dubious. He said it was especially
>bad because it was on the inner edge of the beaner which gets loaded in
>tension and hence pulls any microcracks open.

What i'm getting from this is that its all too variable dependant to predict (height, landing on grass/rock, where the impact is etc). Even if 1 out of 1000 drops causes damage that could reduce the integrity which isn't visible to the naked eye would you want to risk using that 1 draw? I certainly wouldn't.

gfdonc

9-Nov-2011
12:04:26 PM

On 9/11/2011 Sabu wrote:

>would you want to risk using that 1 draw? I certainly
>wouldn't.

The overriding principle here is avoid single points of failures. Biner breakage, while very rare, is not unheard of (leverage over an edge for example). If you have redundancy in the system and reassurance of the evidence quoted above then the issue largely goes away. YMMV.


Andrew_M

9-Nov-2011
12:04:47 PM

On 9/11/2011 ado_m wrote:
>Simply because you took the newbie climbing with your gear, and he dropped
>from a good 10M+, I think out of courtesy he should offer to replace, regardless
>of the science.

You could definitely go further with this:

experienced climber (fondling cam at end of pitch): "dude, did you use your index and middle fingers to retract this cam?:

newbie: "um...yeah, is that wrong?"

EC: "yeah, everybody knows you can't do that with a rigid friend...you have to use your ring and index...now it's stuffed...you owe me a new one"

N: "seriously?"

EC: "no sh!t...since they don't make these anymore I guess I'll have to settle for one of the new ones...dammnit I loved that cam"

uwhp510

9-Nov-2011
12:27:39 PM

On 9/11/2011 davidn wrote:
>I climb on dropped gear,

Dude, I would seriously think about the micro-fractures in your shoes/chalk bag/toothbrush/pad before you go taking those sort of risks!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Nov-2011
12:28:33 PM

On 9/11/2011 davidn wrote:
>I climb on dropped gear, and so does everyone I know who I've asked.
>Inspect it, heck, put it under bodyweight+ and see if it does anything.
> If not, go for it!

I know some climbers who have been dropped. Would you still climb with them?
;-)

The issue of microfractures was relevant in the olde days to cast aluminium karabiners, that may or may not have had occlusions in them due to that manufacturing process.
I gather that krabs are no longer made with that technique these days, so the point is mute.

Likewise steel karabiners are safe due to not being made from hardened 'brittle' (sic), steel.
Where is mikl when you need him?
;-)

Etiquette?
~> Respect for partner (and gear), is often a basis for long term climbing partnerships, and in my opinion this is a thing to be valued...

There are 58 messages in this topic.