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c3 vs master cams


howzithanging?

6-Feb-2011
1:12:20 PM

just wondering what peoples opinions are on the micro cam situation at the moment

the master cams look a lot like aliens (from what i have herd these were good)

i see a lot of people with c3 ( is this because they are cheaper)??

gfdonc

6-Feb-2011
1:32:59 PM

I've got a couple of Metolius Master offsets which I really like. Otherwise I have a full rack of WC Friends and some Aliens. I'd get Metolius ahead of the Aliens - moot point as Aliens are hard to get. The Aliens had a softer aluminium which holds well but wears more.

I've used C3's a couple of times and didn't like them, the stiffer shaft limits their useability.

It depends on what you mean "micro". I have a couple of WC Zeros and they're really good too. However, my smallest "go to" cam is usually the Friend 00 as it's fully rated (14kN) and I just trust it a lot. Similarly the 0 and 0.5. Some of my friends who otherwise have a rack of Camalots also have a 00 for the small cracks. Anything below this size I'm only placing because I have no other options.

tas alex

6-Feb-2011
2:38:13 PM

I have the 4 smallest C3's
i have found them great to use and they seem to fit everywhere. The downside is they dont seem that durable... the stem bends badly if fallen on when in a horizontal placement (the cam still holds though). This is an issue because the trigger wires are housed in the stem, and so are affected if stem is badly bent..

I would probably buy them again as i've definitely got my money's worth out of them, and they are great to use, but if you are whipping onto them regularly and want them to last, i'd go master cams. (aliens are my preference but are no longer available)

Edit - by horizontal placement i mean where the cam is in a vertical crack, but the stem sticks out horizontally, and is unable to rotate downwards. not in a horizontal slot

patto

6-Feb-2011
4:37:45 PM

I love my Wild Country Zeros. In the micro sizes they are the only thing that goes down super small. They are super flexible right down to the head.

In the mini cam size I would go Master Cams. C3s are a duel stem design, this design is far inferior for placements where the stem cannot be angle in the direction of the fall. As has been said earlier the 00 Technical Friend is also a solid piece.

Lots of the people I've spoken to who have C3s haven't even considered Master Cams. Often they just get them because they match their C4s. In my opinion C3s' popularity is unwarranted.

(but each to their own)

brendan

6-Feb-2011
5:52:42 PM

i have been using the c3's for a couple of years. I have recently brought some metolious offsets 00/0 to 1/3 and some regulars size master cams 00 to 1 and quite like them for aid climbing. I think ill still take the c3s out for free climbing though as they overlap well and seem to fit in some placements the master cams dont and i guess its what i am used to, My recommendation would still be c3's for freeclimbing and Mastercams and c3s for Aid climbing


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Feb-2011
5:58:38 PM

I tend to think that the new model smallest sized cams are a wank, as nuts/RPs (particularly offsets), generally go into the same placements, are easier to assess for solidness, and are generally stronger size for size, plus they are easier to double up on if required.
Oh, and they are heaps cheaper too!

I will qualify the above statement by saying that my smallest cams are offset blue/black aliens. They are good for the odd aid placement, but I prefer larger sizes when free climbing if I am likely to rely on them holding a significant fall.

egosan

6-Feb-2011
9:08:34 PM

With a nod to M9 I should preface this by saying you cannot go wrong with a hex.
Regarding micro-cams I am a devote of my Master Cams. The more conservative camming angle makes me feel warm. They are durable and simple. Do not miss looking at the Metolius TCUs. They are super light and fit in very narrow placements. The U stem is very flexible and they load sideways just fine.

patto

6-Feb-2011
9:29:56 PM

On 6/02/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>I tend to think that the new model smallest sized cams are a wank, as nuts/RPs
>(particularly offsets), generally go into the same placements, are easier to assess
>for solidness, and are generally stronger size for size, plus they are
>easier to double up on if required.
>Oh, and they are heaps cheaper too!

Spoken like somebody who hasn't used micro cams. I've lost count of the number of times I've placed my small Zeros that make a supposed run out into an well protected face. I've certainly found this on the Watchtower faces where thin horizontal cracks eat small cams.

Your same rationale could just as easily apply to large nuts and cam. But the truth is that cams go into many places nuts don't, ie parallel sided cracks. Micro cams are pretty easy to assess for solid placements, certainly no more than an RP and less chance of working loose.

Something that is totally underrated for small cracks are Ballnuts. (Though I don't own them) They are arguably as effective as micro cams yet are stronger and narrower. Have fun getting them out after taking a whipper on the though! :-D


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Feb-2011
9:39:39 PM

On 6/02/2011 patto wrote:
>Spoken like somebody who hasn't used micro cams. I've lost count of the
>number of times I've placed my small Zeros that make a supposed run out
>into an well protected face. I've certainly found this on the Watchtower
>faces where thin horizontal cracks eat small cams.
>
>Your same rationale could just as easily apply to large nuts and cam.
> But the truth is that cams go into many places nuts don't, ie parallel
>sided cracks. Micro cams are pretty easy to assess for solid placements,
>certainly no more than an RP and less chance of working loose.
>

I have used microcams belonging to my climbing partners.

I find them heavy compared to nuts, often too wide for the placements I want to use, and the minimal expansion range they have makes them impractical for irregular placements as some lobes umbrella to their maximum limit.

If you are on splitter parallel sided cracks in good quality rock, then yes, they rule; ... but splitter parallel cracks that thin have to be sought out, as they are not often found at the places I find myself mostly climbing at.

Regarding working loose. Anything poorly placed will do that.
☺

Wendy

6-Feb-2011
9:43:44 PM

I'm sure we've been through this before somewhere, M9, why didn't you drag it out???

I have aliens, master cams, c3s, the smallest friends, HBs and c4s. I almost never use the c3s unless i need still more of the size and I would never buy any larger than the red. I find the stem gets in the way of a range of placements and I prefer how the 4 cam units sit most of the time. I love the 3 smallest master cams, the yellow is ok as well, but wouldn't bother with the larger ones. The purple and grey are definately the most solid pieces of that size i have ever placed (and i've even fallen on one of them). 0 00 friends, mah, they rate rather lowly with friends in general in my book. the orange hb was ok whilst it was all i had, probably the only HB i would ever actually use, i hate the things in larger sizes. The green to red aliens are the bomb, but I have written off the blue and black since the arrival of the master cams (the purple and grey ones are so much better). Still, i don't think you can buy them new anywhere anymore so that's the end of that plan. I guess I'd like the yellow and orange master cams more if I didn't have the aliens. I almost never carry the .3 and .4 camalots because I prefer the aliens too. Guess they'd get more of a look in without the aliens too.

And Rod, i'd be impressed to see you get nuts of any sort into most of the placements I put my micro cams in! Parallel cracks are just cruddy to get nuts in when you can just bung a cam in.

One Day Hero

7-Feb-2011
5:30:34 AM

On 6/02/2011 tas alex wrote:
>>
>Edit - by horizontal placement i mean where the cam is in a vertical crack,
>but the stem sticks out horizontally, and is unable to rotate downwards.
>not in a horizontal slot

So, I would try not to place a cam like this.....ever! Doesn't matter what brand, cams just don't work that way (most will totally shit themselves to bits, e.g. monty's aid climbing cam).

If it holds bodyweight, consider yourself lucky. If it catches a fall, you've just witnessed a miracle.........and should not be counting small change by bitching about how damaged the stem is.

Do you really place cams sticking out sideways as pro for free climbing? Perhaps Mikl needs to bust out Robbie for another series of "demonstrating the bleeding farking obvious" tests.

tas alex

7-Feb-2011
9:38:15 AM

On 7/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Do you really place cams sticking out sideways as pro for free climbing?
>Perhaps Mikl needs to bust out Robbie for another series of "demonstrating
>the bleeding farking obvious" tests.

Yes- all the time. I know it's not optimal, but for hard thin cracks climbing free (not wiggling in some bullshit RPs while standing in aiders) then it's a good option. If you think cams don't work this way, why would aliens be so popular?? Master cams and aliens have a both directional flexy stem so they work in horizontal placements. This is the whole point, and seems pretty bleeding farking obvious to me

One Day Hero

7-Feb-2011
9:58:13 AM

On 7/02/2011 tas alex wrote:
>
>Yes- all the time. I know it's not optimal, but for hard thin cracks climbing
>free (not wiggling in some bullshit RPs while standing in aiders) then
>it's a good option. If you think cams don't work this way, why would aliens
>be so popular?? Master cams and aliens have a both directional flexy stem
>so they work in horizontal placements. This is the whole point, and seems
>pretty bleeding farking obvious to me

Ummm, aliens are popular because the narrow head allows them to be placed stem-downward in shallower placements...........as indicated in the little booklet which comes with them. Another interesting thing in that booklet is the bit which tells you not to place the thing in a trapped horizontal position, cause it'll shit itself.......but don't let that stop you.

Hey, I bet you're from northern tassie, aren't ya?

patto

7-Feb-2011
10:18:53 AM

On 6/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>
>And Rod, i'd be impressed to see you get nuts of any sort into most of
>the placements I put my micro cams in! Parallel cracks are just cruddy
>to get nuts in when you can just bung a cam in.

Exactly. I don't see how you can compare cams to nuts they are not substitutes. There are plenty of spots that only nuts will fit and plenty of spots that only cams will fit.

On 7/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>So, I would try not to place a cam like this.....ever! Doesn't matter
>what brand, cams just don't work that way (most will totally shit themselves
>to bits, e.g. monty's aid climbing cam).
>
>If it holds bodyweight, consider yourself lucky. If it catches a fall,
>you've just witnessed a miracle.........and should not be counting small
>change by bitching about how damaged the stem is.
>
>Do you really place cams sticking out sideways as pro for free climbing?
>Perhaps Mikl needs to bust out Robbie for another series of "demonstrating
>the bleeding farking obvious" tests.

I'm sorry but you are way off there. Sure a cam placed with its stem horizontal is far from ideal but it can still be solid. In fact I will happily test on of my cams in such a position with Robbie. I often place my C4s in such positions in pockets. Usually there is no way for it to pop without rock failure.

In fact Wild Country actually endorse placing their Zeros in such a position. (Though does suggest that the holding power of such placements could be compromised.)


ajfclark

7-Feb-2011
10:23:13 AM

On 7/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>.as indicated in the little booklet which comes with them. Another interesting thing in that booklet is the bit which tells you not to place the thing in a trapped horizontal position, cause it'll shit itself.......but don't let that stop you.

This kind of thing?


skink

7-Feb-2011
10:24:56 AM

On 6/02/2011 tas alex wrote:
>I have the 4 smallest C3's
>i have found them great to use and they seem to fit everywhere. The downside
>is they dont seem that durable...

Of course they are not durable if you use them in a way they are not designed to be used. I reckon none of the microcams out there would stand up to this abuse.

tas alex

7-Feb-2011
10:25:18 AM

Thats complete rubbish. Cams placed like this still work.
The narrow head is an advantage, but the main reason they are popular is the flexy stem (and soft lobes), enabling placement at different angles

bones

7-Feb-2011
10:48:44 AM

Horizontal placements may not be ideal but I've taken falls on small c3's placed in this way and they held. In the unsure world of trad climbing thats good enough for me.


ado_m

7-Feb-2011
5:32:49 PM

i've used them all apart from ball nuts, and if i had to fall on a piece my preference would be:

aliens (so flexible)
metolius master cams (so bomber)
zeros (good)
c3s (so plasticy


sliamese

7-Feb-2011
6:37:44 PM

It all comes back to what they're used for. Your wrong alex, if you want to climb the Bard, not fall, and never really push the gear.

But if you want to push your limit on trad routes, you'll be placing a load of cams like that, and falling on them. Be interesting to see someone strung out, pumped senseless, having a quick flick through the instruction book.

The bottom line answer though is depends. For granite/flaring or pods gimme the C3s. Dolerite/volcanic and prob sandstone gimme masters. Ive broken some of most brands of cams, they all dont survive too long when u start lobbing. C3's seem to last(even the 000 that was fallen on twice, placed as above). So get the cheap ones!! :)

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