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No good belay devices yet?

mikllaw

13-Oct-2010
6:46:27 AM

I don't think there are any good belay devices yet:-

Autolockers encourage bad belaying, you still must use the anchor hand, and they can be fooled into dropping people. And they are definately not for trad.
You have to remain concious with belay plates and Munters
Waist belays are too painful

Tho' anecdotally there seem to be more incidents with grigris than belay plates, I think this might be because of the number of alls each device sees.


sbm

13-Oct-2010
9:51:37 AM

You mean, no one has created a perfect, simple and completely safe belay device? Would you like a pony as well?

You are right though, every belay device is a tradeoff. Autolockers have their place, but I think they should be more of a specialised thing rather than a general use thing. They are complicated and have a lot of ways for you to screw it up.

It should be possible to back up an ATC in case of injury to the belayer - just add friction until even if you let go completely, the climber is lowered rather than dropped. You could double-up the belay biner. Maybe even back it up with an autoblock prusik on the belayer's leg loop?


aarond

13-Oct-2010
10:26:36 AM

i think ATC's are pretty good. best belay devices IMO.
although i finally got sucked into an auto locking device for when i belay sport climbers.

willy

13-Oct-2010
11:03:09 AM

On 13/10/2010 sbm wrote:
>You mean, no one has created a perfect, simple and completely safe belay
>device? Would you like a pony as well?
>
>You are right though, every belay device is a tradeoff. Autolockers have
>their place, but I think they should be more of a specialised thing rather
>than a general use thing. They are complicated and have a lot of ways for
>you to screw it up.
>
>It should be possible to back up an ATC in case of injury to the belayer
>- just add friction until even if you let go completely, the climber is
>lowered rather than dropped. You could double-up the belay biner. Maybe
>even back it up with an autoblock prusik on the belayer's leg loop?

thats a damn good idea


dimpet

13-Oct-2010
11:55:39 AM

>It should be possible to back up an ATC in case of injury to the belayer
>- just add friction until even if you let go completely, the climber is
>lowered rather than dropped. You could double-up the belay biner. Maybe
>even back it up with an autoblock prusik on the belayer's leg loop?

I think it would be quite difficult to belay with this set up. Paying out rope fast just wont be
possible at all and could make things more dangerous by causing a fall that wouldn't
have otherwise happened in the first place.


sbm

13-Oct-2010
11:56:31 AM

On 13/10/2010 willy wrote:
>>
>>It should be possible to back up an ATC in case of injury to the belayer
>>- just add friction until even if you let go completely, the climber
>is
>>lowered rather than dropped. You could double-up the belay biner. Maybe
>>even back it up with an autoblock prusik on the belayer's leg loop?
>
>thats a damn good idea

It would probably end up being just as awkward as lead belaying with a grigri. But if you fiddled with the length/wraps of the autoblock, hand placement, and the amount of slack I reckon you could come up with a workable belay technique.


Sabu

13-Oct-2010
12:24:22 PM

On 13/10/2010 aarond wrote:
>i think ATC's are pretty good. best belay devices IMO.

Second that. Love my ATC (petzl verso), never had a major problem. The whole point about belaying is you are supposed to be vigilent so I fail to see why this is a problem.

Autolockers breed complacency.

gfdonc

13-Oct-2010
12:45:53 PM

I've never owned an autolocker, but used a grigri a bit in Yosemite and could see some use for them, particularly as a backup when jumaring.

I've held trad falls on skinny cord (double 8mm with one rope taking most of the force) without problem using an XP-guide or similar. The case in point was my leader peeling backwards off an unsuccessful attempt to broach the ledge at the end of Eurydice p1, pretty entertaining fall involving ripped gear (she pulled up down towards the bolt, and made the move 3rd try by the way).

In theory the forces are going to be lower using an ATC style because they start to slip at 3-6kn (depending on who you believe). This is the argument for not using an autolocker for trad gear, even though a grigri will start to slip with higher loads. I've never had rope burn even off a decent fall so I figure the forces on the belayer are lower in practice than theory might predict.

However, some people I know always use a belay glove, and I'll be using a glove more in future 'cos it seems like good practice.

I wonder if having an autolocker would be worthwhile when being belayed by beginners, if nothing else.

rightarmbad

13-Oct-2010
12:57:46 PM

The only safe way to be belayed by an unknown beginner is to have another experienced person hold the brake rope behind them.
Once a belayer is competent, then any device will do.


ambyeok

13-Oct-2010
1:04:02 PM

Second you on the petzel Sabu, can I get a witness? reverso 3 is light, feeds awesome, raps brilliantly and auto-blocks like a champ. Apparently it stops falls as well, but my climbing partner continually and steadfastly refuses to lauch. Grrrr

Olbert

13-Oct-2010
1:11:08 PM

On 13/10/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>I wonder if having an autolocker would be worthwhile when being belayed
>by beginners, if nothing else.

Surely the whole point is that autolockers arent meant for beginners!? Only experienced belayers should use autolockers.

I used to agree with the ATC for everything people until my partner start to sit on the rope more. Using an ATC where you partner spends a lot of time sitting on the rope on a sport route sucks after having used a Grigri. Grigri's are awesome if you know or suspect the leader is going to spend a while sitting on the rope.

gfdonc

13-Oct-2010
4:10:40 PM

Ground anchors are also awesome if the leader is sitting on the rope. Doesn't anyone build ground anchors any more?

Olbert

13-Oct-2010
4:15:44 PM

On 13/10/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>Ground anchors are also awesome if the leader is sitting on the rope.
>Doesn't anyone build ground anchors any more?
>
Do you mean so that you can attach the grigri to the ground and just walk off. As long as your leader is smooth enough he should have no trouble!

Im not sure how a ground anchor would help - I find being attached to both the ground and the belay rope quite awkward when I have to catch falls and take someones weight.

Pommy

13-Oct-2010
4:59:44 PM

I thought Faders Sums were fairly foolproof.
Until I was foolish enough to let a sort of beginner from work belay me. He just grabbed the whole device and fully opened it when I fell from above the 4th bolt to the ground.
Lucky it was a gym with a soft floor.

If you can manage not to panic and squeeze the Sum open with both hands during a fall, they seem a fair bit less prone to c--k-ups than Grigris

gfdonc

13-Oct-2010
5:07:42 PM

On 13/10/2010 Olbert wrote:
>Im not sure how a ground anchor would help - I find being attached to
>both the ground and the belay rope quite awkward when I have to catch falls
>and take someones weight.

I've seen a few incidents where people have been jerked off their feet by a fall, then lost stability. Especially if you're belaying on sloping ground, and uphill from the start of the climb. A relatively small tug will make you lose your stance and pendulum downhill.
If you're pulled off your feet, one possible reflex action is to put your hands out to catch yourself. This would kinda be bad for the dangling leader. Fortunately I've never seen anyone dropped this way, it seems there's also a countering reflex to hang onto the rope, at least by experienced belayers.


..::- Chris -::..

13-Oct-2010
5:11:48 PM

Eddy ?? not sure on the spelling seems to be a safe beginer auto locker. They are compulsory for lead beley's at my local gym and take a little getting used to but you feed them like an ATC, you cannot hold them down like a gri gri and the handle used to lower from only works if your in control, i.e let go it re-locks or pull it too hard and it re-locks, it only lowers in the half position (handle pulled halfway back)

I thought when i first started using it that the device is much harder to feed without it autolocking, but with the right size rope and practise it's quite easy. I still use a gri gri basically becuase i own one and never had a problem with it, but the eddy does seem to be a "fool" proof autobeley device... ; )

One Day Hero

13-Oct-2010
7:19:25 PM

On 13/10/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>
>I've seen a few incidents where people have been jerked off their feet
>by a fall, then lost stability. Especially if you're belaying on sloping
>ground, and uphill from the start of the climb. A relatively small tug
>will make you lose your stance and pendulum downhill.

Why on earth would you belay on sloping ground, uphill from the start of a route?

>If you're pulled off your feet, one possible reflex action is to put your
>hands out to catch yourself.

I just don't go out climbing with the sort of numbnuts who would let go of the rope cause they got pulled off the ground a bit.

I've always wondered about people who lash themselves to the ground to belay..........I suspect they are mostly wierdo's who don't have a clue. My girlfriend is 20kg lighter than me and catches whippers just fine. She'll get lifted off the ground about a meter or so, but so what? Getting pulled a meter off the ground isn't a major drama for non-wierdo's.

hargs

13-Oct-2010
7:35:51 PM

On 13/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>I've always wondered about people who lash themselves to the ground to
>belay..........I suspect they are mostly wierdo's who don't have a clue.

I was taught -- er, way back when -- always to lash myself to something, even on the ground, and still usually do if only out of habit. Never questioned the practice; it seemed like a sensible thing to do. Thought it was old-fashioned maybe, but not weird. Until now. I just realised back then we were (little) kids belaying (large) men so it probably made a lot more sense then than it does today.


climbertron

13-Oct-2010
8:26:15 PM

On 13/10/2010 hargs wrote:
>On 13/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>>I've always wondered about people who lash themselves to the ground to
>>belay..........I suspect they are mostly wierdo's who don't have a clue.
>
>I was taught -- er, way back when -- always to lash myself to something,
>even on the ground, and still usually do if only out of habit. Never questioned
>the practice; it seemed like a sensible thing to do. Thought it was old-fashioned
>maybe, but not weird. Until now. I just realised back then we were (little)
>kids belaying (large) men so it probably made a lot more sense then than
>it does today.

I was taught recently to lash myself in the case of an imbalanced weight ratio. I always thought that it was because if you are pulled up and swing awkwardly into the wall, you might bump yourself in such a way that your brake hand loses control.

gfdonc

13-Oct-2010
10:19:02 PM

On 13/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>Why on earth would you belay on sloping ground, uphill from the start
>of a route?

'Cos it's the only decent stance.

There are 66 messages in this topic.