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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Bolts can be placed anywhere, any time 5
10% 
No bolting should take place 5
10% 
It depends on the line/consultation 42
81% 

Author
Ethics
scarecrow
16/09/2010
1:14:25 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm a Year 12 Student in Adelaide, doing Outdoor Ed and my major paper is on 'The Ethics of Bolting in Rockclimbing'.

Now you won't believe it but I would love to hear your opinions on the issue.

Mods - I know there have been previous threads but if I could get some new info it would be great.

I'm happy to take all opinions, diatribes, whatever!

Thank you in advance.

Will
J.C.
16/09/2010
1:18:35 PM
Chuck me an email (photos@joshcaple.com) so that I remember, when I get home I'll send you some info you might find helpful for your paper..
Hugh
16/09/2010
1:25:53 PM
where's One Day Hero, he'll help you out ;-)
widewetandslippery
16/09/2010
1:33:23 PM
What are you doing studying ethics at school for? I thought you were meant to learn ethics at the church or mosque? I don't go to a church or mosque. I put bolts in where ever I want.

..::- Chris -::..
16/09/2010
1:59:28 PM
I think you need another option

"Depends on the (Historical) Ethics of the area" I think this is how most climbers would vote (In my opinion)

then you could elaborate in your report on the types of ethics that can be seen around australia and around the world

eg - Some examples of Ethics in any given area.

A. No Bolting Area - Bold and Traditional climbing only
B. Bolts or Carrots only where natural gear is unavailable
C. Carrots only
D. Sport area - Rings, BR and Chains etc
E. Knots only protection - no Metal gear as it scar's the rock etc
etc etc etc etc

Cheers
Chris.
Godless
16/09/2010
2:01:24 PM
Now WWW, you're confusing ethics with morals. A common mistake in discussions of bolting, as Dr Green and Prof Mark Colyvan pointed out years ago.

citationx
16/09/2010
2:12:20 PM
On 16/09/2010 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>I think you need another option
>

Definitely lacking in options. Very limited points for consideration - yes, no, maybe. "Most people believe that maybe lines should be bolted"...Hmmm.
Hugh
16/09/2010
2:13:29 PM
scarecrow, chris is right, you really need to expand the poll options. Sure there are deffinately times where bolting is fine, however without defining these times, relevant to what the climbers and bolters themselves believe you are not going to have a very well rounded discussion. Evidence!!!
scarecrow
16/09/2010
2:41:03 PM
Guys the options in the poll surely don't particularly matter - instead put your opinion in words and don't vote in the poll!
Hugh
16/09/2010
3:28:35 PM
scarecrow: if you want to put together a good arguement you need a way to quantify your data. The poll is perfect. Simple and easy to employ, most people will answer and you will get a contrast of opinions. (there are similar themes) when the time comes to actually writing it will be much easier. Furthermore, you can then make footnotes, in your discussion such as, somemany% said this, however some commented that .... Bla bla bla. Makes it much easier for the reader and you!


As an edit: The poll is at 78% in favour of bolts in the right place. One might say thats the community entirely (accounting for error and smart ass posters). Using that data, you have one line of discussion......







robertsonja
16/09/2010
4:52:20 PM
The majority of climbers will get all super technical on the merits of each bolt placement and the virtues of their strong ethics (as indicated by your poll).

The reality is that any numb nuts from the suburbs with a shiny set of
quickdraws can place bolts in any of our National Parks or Wilderness areas,
or a world class traditional climbing area such as Arapiles, and receive
little or no scorn from the climbing community.
scarecrow
16/09/2010
5:13:41 PM
On 16/09/2010 robertsonja wrote:
>The majority of climbers will get all super technical on the merits of
>each bolt placement and the virtues of their strong ethics (as indicated
>by your poll).
>
>The reality is that any numb nuts from the suburbs with a shiny set of
>quickdraws can place bolts in any of our National Parks or Wilderness areas,
>or a world class traditional climbing area such as Arapiles, and receive
>little or no scorn from the climbing community.
>
>


This is good - Let me hear some scorn! I need a polarizing opinion, so far what I have is all half and half.
>
>
Fish Boy
16/09/2010
5:25:35 PM
Really Jason? Look what happens when someone places some belay bolts on Tiger Wall? Or were you being funny ha ha?!

martym
17/09/2010
4:56:35 AM
If it weren't for bolts, climbing wouldn't be as popular.
If it weren't so popular, there wouldn't be climbing gyms.
If there weren't climbing gyms, most climbers wouldn't be as technically & physically able as they are today.
If all of the above weren't true, then gear wouldn't be as advanced & relatively affordable as it is today.

Now scarecrow, is this a good thing?

On 16/09/2010 robertsonja wrote:
>The reality is that any numb nuts from the suburbs with a shiny set of
>quickdraws can place bolts in any of our National Parks or Wilderness areas
widewetandslippery
17/09/2010
8:16:13 AM
On 16/09/2010 Godless wrote:
>Now WWW, you're confusing ethics with morals. A common mistake in discussions
>of bolting, as Dr Green and Prof Mark Colyvan pointed out years ago.
>
>

I am morally bankrupt. No arguement on being confused.

Surely someone can send this fella Mark Mooreheads piece on ethics from the carrigan araps guide? I didn't bring mine to work today.

wallwombat
17/09/2010
3:39:12 PM
On 17/09/2010 widewetandslippery wrote:

>Surely someone can send this fella Mark Mooreheads piece on ethics from
>the carrigan araps guide? I didn't bring mine to work today.

Here you go, Dude.

More Introduction

First I considered writing about the geological history of the Mount. Describing its billion year history, year by year Illustrating its metamorphosis throughout the ages. And with the aid of time-lapse photography and 39 million zillion colour slides, we can retrace its early
development. Quite a technological feat, eh what?

Anyway, after a while I figured it would be boring, boring, boring! Instead I'll explain how to create any number of hyper-classic new routes.First things second, you must pick a line: a blank wall, anything will do.

So now we have a prospective route. What is required is rumour, unsubstantiated fact or fiction. Fabricate a multitude of stories. Subtlety is the key. Let everyone know that you are working on the route: the most cosmic technicoloured route of the century. They can't deny it, because they haven't seen it.

In this way, you will probably get the pick of the belayers. The silent ones are the best.Preferably without eyes or ears. (Of course, you wouldn't be ashamed of anything, now would you?) This gets around the trap of having to use a jerk, A jerk travels around with a pocket tape recorder and video-machine. You know, 'just to record the climb for posterity, my goo man'.

Well, there it stands - the hyperclassic. Destined to have as many ascents as there are minutes in a second. Well, what do you do? Rappel! Inspect! Make it safe for all those billions of repeat ascentionists,

Assume you're rapping (off something secure I hope: two bolts and a chain). Any more bolts than that, and you won't be able to sit down. There are two things you must be prepared to do while thus engaged: brush the moss, and bolt the rock.

The classic way of removing those little stains of green, lichenous substance is with a wire brush. Hopeless! The only way to totally eradicate the moss is with a large pneumatic drill. You have to literally blow it apart, leaving quite an unsightly mess.

More cosmetically pleasing is bolting. If your route needs 100 bolts, it will probably take some time. Reconsider. Could you manage with 99? Well in they go. Tap! Tap! Tap! Heaven, eh? What a blast!

Concerning their placement, make sure they protrude at least 3/4 of their length, And if you are blessed with a long pair of arms, place them at your furthest reach. Burn all the long sticks around. Fixed hangers can always cause a laugh. Don't drive the bolt flush with the rock; make sure the hanger spins freely. (Oil helps - ed). If you are a thrillseeker, give it a droop, some character (Make-believe-big-leader-fall- country)

But what about ethics you say. Ethics are like the weather; here today' gone tomorrow. In fact, some people say Yvon Chouinard manufactured them. Hasn't anyone noticed, they emerged at the same time as hexcentrics? Bit of a coincidence isn't it? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, chip, chip, say no more.

In the 15th Century, the French philosopher-cum-climber Rene Descartes was searching for a reason for his existence. He concluded - 'Boltus, ergo sum'. I bolt, therefore I am. Mind you, I'm not trying to justify my actions, not one little bit (drill bit? - ed). I'm just trying to illustrate how wrongly accused those beacons of humanity were. Of course I speak of Maestri, Livesey and Jardine.

Finally, concerning undergrading. Never, never admit to it. And never remain consistent, That is if you undergrade something by two grades, make it eight next time, Confusion is the key to success. People will readily accept Procol Harum is 18, but there isn't the slightest chance you would get away with Bard at 11.

Let your imagination guide you.

Mark Moorhead
tastybigmac
19/09/2010
12:17:06 AM
Bugger bolting ethics. I think the real question should be "is it ok to crap on a climb?"

I watched a great video (thanks ross) recently where a guy crapped himself on route. I have also seen a kid lay a nice little booby trap at the start of a climb. And have seen much shit on ledges as well as shitty undies left behind like a monument to the bold ascent which just transpired.

So what is everyone's opinion? Is it ok to leave a log on the ledge? Do you think it is right to pinch one off at the belay? Or should you get the turtle to pull his head in until you make it to safety?

There are 17 messages in this topic.

 

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