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Cliff Access and National Parks NT

Youngstu

16-May-2010
6:41:50 PM

I am looking for some advice. Near Darwin there is a National Park which has some of the best rock in the NT. Unfortunately NT National Parks has restricted climbng to a small section of cliff and you need a permit to climb. To obtain a permit you need to present climbing qualifications in the form of a certificate from an accredited course i.e. the sort of accreditation commercial guides have. Very few people in the NT have this accreditation and at there moment there is no-one offering this service in the NT.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to approach the NT Parks service and negotiate with them too change their policy?

Cheers

rodw

16-May-2010
7:41:22 PM

NSW nat parks "use" a permit system in some parks too....problem is they dont issue permits...kinda a way of banning climbing without the justification needed...good luck with it.

racingtadpole

17-May-2010
7:34:30 PM

Which Park? Methinks you have been misquoted the regs..

crm114

18-May-2010
12:49:05 PM

I am guessing you are talking about Umbrawarra Gorge..?

Not sure about approaching them and all that but those rules have been in place since before we were up there (ie pre-2004).

I have climbed there a bunch of times in the past. No-one ever asked for us permit, in fact, we never saw a ranger. We also camped there on each occaision.

I am not sure where you are based but you might try and have a word with some of the climbers down at the indoor gym in Darwin (in Doctor's Gully near the centre). They may be able to help you with this or with some other climbing places which do not have such restrictions.

ZERO

18-May-2010
4:01:58 PM

climbed in the centre for 3 years, often in macDonnell Ranges NP, even talked to ranger about assisting rescues if required.
Never heard of need ing a permit.
Best thing is to stay in established areas in case you transgress sacred sites, which is the big taboo up there.

Youngstu

19-May-2010
11:21:39 PM

Yeah Umba is the place.
I've been climbing up here since 07 and its normally been the case that there has never been a ranger around, but of late climbers have been questioned by ranger as to where their permit is and why they are not climbing in the designated "climbing area". Parks know of the guide book but have never made an attempt to contact the author.
As a friend and I are currently updating the guide, I was wondering if I should contact Parks and find out where they stand.

ZERO

20-May-2010
11:01:34 AM

If they give you grief about "climbing areas" ask to see the plan of management and any declarations in the Government Gazette that make these zones legitimate.
Also challenge their permit system. Can you apply on line or by making a phone call to the local office. This sort of information and process should be simple to access.
If they cannot back up with official proclamations then I guess they are playing bluff games.
Also, if a Ranger wants to question you, make sure you ask to see their Authorisation. otherwise they cannot legally ask you any details such as name and address.

I fyou have no success a letter to the Minister and your local Member of Parliament are good ways to stir the hornets nest.

rodw

20-May-2010
11:47:50 AM

Quick reasearch found here..that they might use in NT parks....

http://notes.nt.gov.au/dcm/legislat/legislat.nsf/linkreference/TERRITORY%20PARKS%20AND%20WILDLIFE%20CONSERVATION%20BY-LAWS

A person shall not, in a park or reserve:
a) dig or otherwise interfere with any soil, stone or other material forming part of the park or reserve; or
(b) remove, mark, damage, deface or otherwise interfere with a:
(i) rock or natural feature; or
(ii) tree, shrub or plant whether or not planted by the Commission,
except as provided in a plan of management in force under the Act.
Maximum penalty: $5,000 and $100 for each day during which the offence continues.

IE banned unless its says in the POM your allowed..and as to not giving your name etc....

Obligation to give name on request
(1) A conservation officer or honorary conservation officer may require a person he believes on reasonable grounds to have contravened or failed to comply with these By-laws to give his name and address.
(2) A person shall not fail or refuse to give his name and address when required to do so in accordance with clause (1).
Maximum penalty: $500.

No mention of him having to produce ID...just food for thought

rodw

20-May-2010
11:49:34 AM

Also pretty clear "how" to get a permit....good luck :)

(1) An application for a permit under these By-laws, other than a permit issued under by-law 13 or 13A, shall be made in writing to the Director and shall state:

(a) the name and address of the applicant;
(b) the purpose for which the applicant requires the permit;

(c) the park or reserve for which or in relation to which the permit is required; and

(d) such other matters as the Commission may require.

(2) On consideration of the application, the Commission must:
(a) issue the permit; or
(b) refuse to issue the permit; or

(c) issue the permit subject to conditions.

(2A) If the Commission decides to refuse to issue a permit, the Commission must give the applicant an information notice for the decision.
(2B) The permit must specify:

(a) how long the permit is in force; and
(b) any conditions of the permit.

(3) A permit shall be carried at all times by the person to whom it has been issued whilst he remains in the park or reserve in relation to which it has been issued, and the holder shall produce it to a conservation officer or honorary conservation officer when requested to do so.
Maximum penalty: $50.

Zebedee

20-May-2010
12:24:49 PM

On 20/05/2010 rodw wrote:
>
>A person shall not, in a park or reserve:
>a) dig or otherwise interfere with any soil, stone or other material forming
>part of the park or reserve; or
>(b) remove, mark, damage, deface or otherwise interfere with a:
>(i) rock or natural feature; or
>(ii) tree, shrub or plant whether or not planted by the Commission,
>except as provided in a plan of management in force under the Act.
>Maximum penalty: $5,000 and $100 for each day during which the offence
>continues.
>
>IE banned unless its says in the POM your allowed..
I can't imagine that this clause alone amounts to a ban on climbing, as long as you didn't remove, mark, damage or deface the rock. Certainly you can walk on rocks without breaking this by-law so you should be able to climb as long as you do it nicely. The except as provided in management plan obviously is to be read in conjunction with the phrases above and does not ban all activities not explicitly mention in the plan.

ajfclark

20-May-2010
12:48:24 PM

So no chalk allowed.

rodw

20-May-2010
12:57:32 PM

Im not saying it should just saying technically rock climbing could be banend using the clause....chalk, cleaning out cracks, placing bolts, pulling off loose rock the list goes on. Govt departmnets love banning things as it means less work in managment overall

crm114

20-May-2010
1:24:01 PM

Do you mean Stu Anderson's guide or some other one..?

Might be worth a try - ask them what the reasons for restricting climbing is and what regulation empowers them to do this. This should include reference to the permits and, separately, the designated areas in the Gorge.

Whose know - maybe they don't have the power to do so though I doubt it. I never bothered checking. I did have an authorised person around a bit too.

I thinks the designated areas bit is because there may be some rock art about. We only ever climbed in the designated bits - there are some bloody nice lines there too, including some gnarly overhangs.

ZERO

20-May-2010
3:31:12 PM

Just spoke to a ranger up that way. They are paranoid about climbers suing if injured or worse, and do expect every climber o have the equivalent of licenced operators.I forgot to ask if I needed to do a training course and have a permit to be gobbled up by a crocodile while swimming in a waterhole.
save yourself the bureaucratic bunfight and climb somewhere it is an accepted recreation.

gdawg

20-May-2010
3:52:24 PM

Climb with discretion.

Youngstu

21-May-2010
9:35:55 PM

Cheers all for the advice and information. I think we'll further discuss it with Stuey, local climbers, friends who are lawyers and friends who work in parks before we decide on any action. Also should be able to get a POM without raising any eyebrows.

There are 16 messages in this topic.