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General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
Author
Significant events that have changed your climbing

cruze
8-Apr-2010
1:51:16 PM
Buoyed by the response on the Stoked thread, I have started a thread to help us share experiences that have changed the way we view climbing. Some of these events will have been positive, other negative. Perhaps your climbing experiences have been changed for the better, others for the worse.

I thought that I would start with a personal one, in the hope that it might encourage others to share a story or two.

I started climbing outdoors before I started indoors, at the age of about 16. In the years that followed, whilst at Uni I tended to climb indoors infrequently and it wasn't until about 8 years ago when I moved back to Canberra that I took up climbing, largely to pursue a certain girl, who recently became my wife. So happy story, right?!

Anyway during the last 8 years I have lost both of my parents. When my Dad died 7 years ago, my outlook on life changed somewhat. A few years previously I had come off a MTB in the Blueys and croken T2-T5 (back) which led to 3 months of bed rest, so I had some idea of how seriously injured you could get from risky activities. That changed my view on risk taking in climbing, but more so after my Dad died. After that point I didn't take unnecessary risks if I could help it and I really only considered that significant risk taking must involve significant reward for success. That theme populated my climbing, which at times involved scary climbing on granite around the ACT and in Tarana, but also pushed me closer into alignment with the leader must not fall mentality (with trad) which meant that my trad grades remained in the teens.

Years went by and I climbed quite a lot until I received a call from my brother that my mother was being admitted to hospital after scans had revealed a tumour in her brain. As it turned out I received that phone call from Sydney on the same day that I had planned a half day trip to You Yangs. Without giving it any more thought than you would for such a serious event I thought that I would just get on with what I doing, having already booked a flight to Sydney for the next morning, and set off to climb on the Flinders slabs. There was one climb in particular that looked like an easy starting point - Tewkesbury. About half way up this grade 16 granite slab with a few bolts over 30 m, I pretty much broke down. I couldn't resolve in my head why I was taking any risk whatsoever climbing between spaced pieces when my mother was about to go through brain surgery with an unknown but serious prognosis. I got to the top eventually, but it was the only climb that I led that day and we didn't stay for long. I felt guilty for trying to enjoy myself, guilty for risking perfect health and guilty for not being with my mum immediately.

Fast forwarding through the next three years to the present day, I have spent more time in Sydney caring for my mother who was diagnosed with glioblastoma multiforme (WHO grade IV cancer - a particularly nasty one) than I have on the rock - by a long way. Her second craniotomy left her with left sided paralysis which required 24/7 supervision because of fall risk, etc etc. for the last 2 years. My sister cared for her for the majority of the time while living with her in Sydney.

My mother died a month ago which was tragic but not unexpected. She was not old, and had lived a particularly healthy lifestyle keeping fit and eating everything good.

There are still a lot of thoughts pinging around in my brain about life and death, andI can easily say that my mind has been seriously affected when it comes to risk management. I once heard a phrase "If you are careful enough nothing good or bad will ever happen to you" and I agree with this to some extent. My assessment of risk usually results in quite consevrative decision making including choice of routes, choices of conditions, choice of gear, lacing up climbs, backing off if I don't feel comfortable, thinking about my partner's comfort level, etc etc. I don't agree that climbing has to be as dangerous as a lot of people make it out to be, or make it. I don't feel comfortable seeing new climbers climbing with the overconfidence and bravado that I had 10 years or more ago, although I understand that that is their journey to take (hopefully with a few pointers from me).

At the age of 32 I am an old man.

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a sob story. I just thought that I would start a thread hoping to hear what people had to say about life and death experiences, or relationships, etc that have changed the way they view climbing.

Robb
8-Apr-2010
2:13:35 PM
andrew.
You are not old - just older than you were yesterday.
I think you do get a bit more cautious as you get older. maybe because you realise how crap it is to be injured and not being able to do the stuff you like doing.
the extent to which you 'push the boat out ' is very subjective. Non climbers and the general population sometimes this climbing and mountaineering are 'extreme' just because they dont really understand and everyone has their own measures i guess.
Interesting topic though.
widewetandslippery
8-Apr-2010
2:33:09 PM
Cruze, great post.

I have had many significant event affect my climbing and climbing has been one of the significant events in my life. At 18 within a couple of months I had 2 climbing mates laid out on the hard bed and braced respectively with spinal injuries. I dropped out of uni and became a climbing bum. In writing this I wonder how such events would now mentally affect me.

billk
8-Apr-2010
2:38:56 PM
On 8/04/2010 cruze wrote:
>"If you are careful
>enough nothing good or bad will ever happen to you"

That's pretty close to the mark.

However, cancer is a negative lottery we all have tickets in. You can get yourself more by doing some things like smoking but you can't avoid being in the lottery.

I had cancer four years ago and have been lucky so far. I have been very grateful for that and have had some great climbing trips in that time, although I sure wish I'd had some more, having just spent Easter at home.
final fling
8-Apr-2010
2:46:14 PM
Awesome topic and pretty big of you to open it with such a profound post.
I dont see much in your post to show you lack at all, even for an old guy.

Age doesnt really make you take it a little slower, its more about your expectation of what you are looking for from what you are doing.

I see living and doing stuff like mountians and climbing as the same thing, as an extention of us. I dont really believe anyone does adventure because they are on a death wish, or really wants to be hurt.
In fact we all work hard not to get hurt or hurt people.

I am at the other end of the scale, getting into this life of climbing after doing heaps of other sports and life experiances. (This is one of them for me) so all learning and mistakes are my thing every time i am out.
Risk is relative and so is out of control risk.

My take on this is that I love the feeling of freedom and adventure, it helps me live fully.

As such I find I only push myself out of my capacity when well protected ie toproped or indoors. When outside I try to enjoy the whole experiance well within myself, so I can be around for the next day. I still find I am improving and being able to do more which is rewarding.




Breat post Cruze, makes you think!!

Hendo
8-Apr-2010
2:58:30 PM
I am by no means a grizzled old climber, I really haven’t been climbing for all that long so I don’t have any serious stories to tell. However I do ponder my views on risk taking and like almost everything I think about I never come to any firm conclusions, because well, I think I look for imaginary absolute answers. At the moment, while I feel that I have a future to live for, if I die nobody is going to live a life of hardship as a result (I don’t have young children etc). Sure people will be sad for a while but it isn’t the end of the world (for them). If I am maimed and need constant care then someone/’the system’ will experience hardship, hence I am more concerned about that. I vividly remember dodgy situations (groundfalls, dodgy setups etc) when I first started climbing all of which turned out fine (thankfully), and I think I am typically more concerned about getting others (call me old fashioned but especially girls) into bad situations.

I think you could go climbing and be super safe e.g. just toprope from super bomber anchors and you would have less chance of minor or serious injury than many other more mainstream sports. For me I could still have fun doing that (I don’t mind climbing indoors) but it wouldn’t give the sense of adventure. I don’t do things deliberately dangerous (from a climber’s perspective, as opposed to my mother’s…) but I like the idea of going on a trip, not knowing exactly what to expect, not knowing for sure how hard I will find a climb to be, or if I can even make it all the way, how scared I will get, will I get lost, what I will find etc.

To be honest I think I will end up doing things at various points which I consider dangerous and outside my normal level of risks, hopefully it turns out ok. I very much enjoy the absolute focus and concentration I can get from leading, strangely enough the older I get the less I seem to be able to focus and concentrate in normal life. I also need a physical outlet in which to release the animal that is my body.

I agree it seems selfish to put yourself in danger when so many people are forced into situations in which they are desperate to survive and often fail to escape. That is the nature of the beast, climbing has many very self centered aspects to it, people see that as a positive or negative depending on their perspective. The fact that you get to choose your risks is the difference I suppose.

I wonder what I will think in the future.

evanbb
8-Apr-2010
3:16:53 PM
fooooo... heavy stuff.

Mine is much more prosaic, and I'm not going to go into the whole back story, but for those that are keen there's an article on it in Crux 7.


But, I can relate to the breakdown on lead. I've had 10,000 shoulder dislocations, both shoulders over many years. The last few reductions were epic and involved all sorts of shenanigans with drugs and doctors in friendly hospitals.

I've since had the worst one rebuilt and it's just like a bought one. Even better than it's ever been.

But, something inside my brain has stopped working. I've never been a particularly bold leader, but I've lead stacks of trad all over Australia and know my shit at the very least. Now though, despite my shoulders being in their best nick ever, I just can't get psyched to climb. I've suddenly become risk averse and more cautious.

The point I'm getting at is that I should be at all time high confidence-wise, and yet I'm shitting myself on lead in ways I had never before conceived. Something was removed during the operation and I need to figure out what it was.
mikllaw
8-Apr-2010
5:22:38 PM
Very tough stuff. You don't know what's going to flip your switch. When I was younger I guess I looked bold, but I just wasn't paying attention to danger I think. One day I suddenly was very aware of danger and became a real puss in all regards. There was no particular incident that triggered this, maybe they all stacked up.

Certainly when other things are happening in your life they can affect your climbing, and your confidence, massively. The mistake is to try and climb through it.
hargs
8-Apr-2010
10:34:05 PM
Like Evan, I've had 5000 shoulder dislocations -- only one shoulder not both -- and one-by-one they shut down my various outdoor activities. Shoulder first came apart skating, then skiing, in the surf at Catherine Hill Bay and riding jetskis miles outside in big swell on the north shore of Oahu -- my brother reduced it by jamming his foot in my armpit and pulling on my hand -- then canyoning in the blueys -- humuros was out of its socket for 6 hours. Shoulder put itself together when I fell flat on my face tripping over a submerged log -- the one hang gliding at Talbingo could have been bad, but the last straw was a dislocation while leading a route at Piddington.

I had the op and fortunately the new shoulder is bomber. It took many years to come back to climbing, and the experience this time around is completely different. As a kid I remember see-sawing between elation and sheer terror. These days I find myself enjoying just about everything about going climbing.

wallwombat
8-Apr-2010
11:40:45 PM
In 1999 I had a seven year relationship come to an end. I had pushed my partner as far as she could be pushed and understandably she left me. Even though the break-up was largely instigated by me, once it became real, I fell to pieces. I had a major breakdown and spiralled down into a pit of constant heavy drinking, not eating or sleeping and a terrible all-consuming depression. This lasted for about two years. Maybe a bit longer. I was only saved by a having a very good GP, who pulled no punches and about 9 months on antidepressants. I also had to leave Sydney.

During this time, I didn't even think about climbing. I couldn't stand my own company, let alone someone else's. It was a big thing for me just to make myself eat properly and be able to have a normal night's sleep. I'm glad I didn't try to keep climbing through this period as I believe the results would have been nasty.

Anyway, once I was better, I returned to Sydney and scored a pretty good job as a media researcher. I was reasonably happy and started climbing again. Things picked up and I ended up meeting someone and getting married. I climbed more often.

After about 3 years of marriage and reasonable contentment, my Grandfather hung himself. I had been very close to my Grandfather and to make matters worse, 2 weeks before he committed suicide, he changed his will to make me the sole beneficiary. This sent the rest of my family into a frenzy of nastiness and greed and sent me into another breakdown. I stopped going to work and eventually lost my job. I starting drinking heavily again and frivolously pissed most of the money I had inherited up against a wall. Eventually my marriage disintegrated as well .

Again I stopped climbing. Again I felt lost and again I left Sydney.

Again I got better and resumed living a normal life. Again I returned to climbing. I always seem to return to climbing.

Recently I have gone from looking after my elderly Grandmother to watching her slowly die in hospital. Understandably this has had a big effect on me but I somehow feel stronger now. I don't think it's going to happen to me again.

I now understand how my depression works and I am determined to not go through it all again. I want to keep climbing. I want to keep to the small bivy ledge that I have hacked out of this rather large mountain that has become my life. Even though I sense a storm coming, I don't want to retreat into myself this time. I don't want to descend. I want to dig my little tent into the snow and wait this one out.




cruze
9-Apr-2010
8:56:11 AM
Thanks for continuing to share your stories everyone. I notice that a lot of the posters are male, which could be interpreted/misinterpreted in a number of different ways.

It would also be great to hear from people that have had other positive experiences like starting a family (a realise a few people commented on the Stoked thread), or getting their parents into climbing or something like that?

Hans
9-Apr-2010
9:13:07 AM
Good thread. I especially like your post wallwombat - the last paragraph in particular strikes a note with me.

ajfclark
9-Apr-2010
9:24:56 AM
On 9/04/2010 Hans wrote:
>the last paragraph in particular strikes a note with me.

+1

Sarah Gara
9-Apr-2010
9:45:37 AM
A very cheery post? Thanks for sharing guys( I think)...a valuable insight. All that jazz what doesn't kill you makes you stronger etc. Life is poo hey? but then other times it's great. Don't let life get you down, chin up etc.

I'm very lucky -I've had a good life, nice parents, happy childhood, good friends supportive family. And I'm into climbing still for a nice day out! (Although moving to NAti might get me a bit more serious but you will not see me doing push ups or getting up at 5 to go for a run!!)

So not all significant events are bad or sad - anyone got some more cheery life changing events? Jkane (or other's) how's having a baba gonna effect your climbing? eek! (prob worth it I reckon) As for me i'm pondering on getting a pet rat but fear it may be too much commitment -Alhtough I have had a promise from desk monkey that he'd rat sit! still...x
rudimentary
9-Apr-2010
9:47:04 AM
I started climbing at around age 20 (now 28). It was something I did once every few weeks when I got the chance to see my brother in the Gramps. For years I only ever climbed toprope with him, pushing myself to climb harder stuff, no fear. The thought of leading put the fear in me.

This year I have started leading, climbing (at first) many grades below my usual. Nothing, I imagine, could change my climbing more. I now look at the rock with different eyes. I feel an intimate connection. I love placing gear. I actually find good rests and climb with purpose (or could I even say with grace?).

Nothing beats the see-sawing moments of absolute fear and absolute zen.
duglash
9-Apr-2010
10:08:46 AM
Good post Cruze
hero
9-Apr-2010
11:02:41 AM
Consider Kundera’s comment on life and death in The Art of the Novel: “That life is a trap we’ve always known: we are born without having asked to be, locked in a body we never chose, and destined to die.”

Or the wisdom Silenus gave to Midas, “that the best thing for a man is not to be born, and if born, should die as soon as possible.”

The only things that make life worthwhile are the momentary glimpses of wonderment and beauty (though auschwitz survivor Victor Frankel suggested love) and these I have found often in climbing.

I am a grizzled old climber (Cruze – I wish I could have stayed 32 for ever – it is not old). Many of my peers are dead, or crippled, retired from climbing, or worse, moved to Natimuk.

I have never been a particularly bold climber, but to me it is the risk in climbing that makes it worthwhile. To stare into the void (peek behind the veil of Maya) and to see your unavoidable future. And to come back and sit in the grass at the base of the climb, or in Simey’s café (plug) with a strong coffee and see the wonder in the world. I pity people who do not have this in their lives.
Wendy
9-Apr-2010
4:43:24 PM
I fell into a canyon in 1997 when a path collapsed and that's left me with a healthy respect for what might be considered freak accidents. Hence, I try not to put myself in a situation where something could go seriously wrong, no matter how unlikely - I put lots of gear in, look after my gear, don't sally around unroped near cliff edges, make sensible, even conservative, choices about what I am and am not capable of climbing and respecting my limits. Sometimes I do still have symptoms of post-traumatic stress - visions of things like gear pulling, ropes breaking, biners unclipping, loosing balance and falling and other totally unlikely things. Generally, confidence in my knowledge and ability is greater than the pts, but if I'm feeling vulnerable - over tired/stressed/worried about something else, they come up. I hate seeing other people put themselves in situations where something might happen as well, and will sometimes ask people to tie in - even though they are happy, I'm stressed out watching them. It effects other aspects of my life too - I'm nervous about driving in particular. That might have been helped along by being in a car that rolled a few years later.

Inevitably, non climbers ask how you can climb after that (they usually fail to appreciate that it wasn't a climbing accident), but then again, they probably don't get that I wouldn't know what to do with my life if I wasn't climbing anyway. Aside from the places and people and general enjoyment of the activity, I believe climbing is truly addictive. It stimulates your body to produce energising and happy drugs and without those I get stressed, miserable and cranky. Like running, your body is flooded with endorphins afterwards and they are all rather nice. And there is nothing to keep you in the moment like climbing. I love those times when you have committed youself to something and your body just takes over and for a while there may as well be no past or future, you are just completely doing something and in a world where we are increasingly intellectualising and disconnected from our bodies, that total being in your body is great.

billk
9-Apr-2010
4:58:42 PM
On 9/04/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>what doesn't kill you makes you stronger etc.

In the longer term maybe it is true. But it can be a pretty unhelpful slogan.

A friend who took a very long fall at Buffalo told me in amazing detail about what it felt like to do the fish dance at the end of the fall. If you have taken a big hit disease-wise or accident-wise, for instance, you are going to do some fish dancing of one kind or another and some people are going to ask why you don't get your shit together and harden the f... up.
egosan
9-Apr-2010
5:12:54 PM
On 9/04/2010 billk wrote:
>On 9/04/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>>what doesn't kill you makes you stronger etc.
>
>In the longer term maybe it is true. But it can be a pretty unhelpful
>slogan.
>
>A friend who took a very long fall at Buffalo told me in amazing detail
>about what it felt like to do the fish dance at the end of the fall. If
>you have taken a big hit disease-wise or accident-wise, for instance, you
>are going to do some fish dancing of one kind or another and some people
>are going to ask why you don't get your shit together and harden the f...
>up.

One of those really common misquotes out there.

Nietzsche actually wrote, "That which does not kill you will make you weak as a kitten."

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