Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
FREIGHT FREE
in Australia

DMM: New DMM "Belay Master 2" screwgate. I-beam construction and plastic clip. (State of the Art!) N/B Only 1 left!  $25.00
28% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 41. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 300 | 301 to 320 | 321 to 340 | 341 to 360 | 361 to 380 | 381 to 400 | 401 to 420 | 421 to 440 | 441 to 460 | 461 to 480 | 481 to 500 | 501 to 520 | 521 to 540 | 541 to 560 | 561 to 580 | 581 to 600 | 601 to 620 | 621 to 640 | 641 to 660 | 661 to 680 | 681 to 700 | 701 to 720 | 721 to 740 | 741 to 760 | 761 to 780 | 781 to 800 | 801 to 818
Author
OT: Skeptics vs Alarmist Cage Match unSpectacular!

evanbb
13/05/2009
8:34:03 AM
OT: Moorabal/Lal Lal wind farm

On 25/08/2009 oweng wrote:
>This article was in this weekends Australian. It talks about noise (not
>just audible noise issues) that some local residents claim is an issue.
>
>http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25964195-5006785,00.html
>
>Im just posting this as it was an interesting article and I think its
>relevent to the posts above. Not trying to make any points!

The infrasound is interesting. I've heard a theory that it's the cause of jetlag. IE, the very low frequency noise of the engine stuffs your body systems in some way. I've heard of bogans at car shows getting similar symptoms to jet lag, while at loud car stereo competitions.

I've also heard a theory that the cause of jet lag is that your soul can only travel as fast as a camel, and you won't feel better until it arrives. Not sure which theory I like better.





POST EDIT
For those bothering to wade through from the beginning of this thread, wondering why it went on so long, it's not all about this wind farm. It started as an innocuous discussion about planning rules and NIMBYs, but very quickly became an argument about Climate Change and the sceptics arguments. There's some fun stuff in here, particularly the bits about submarines and the general niggle. Good times, good times.



Any of you Victorian residents know anything about this?
http://media.mediamonitors.com.au/ArticlePresenter.aspx?GUID=4dd33071-9569-4862-812d-88a97d0cb631&ArticleID=51201433&output=pdfsearchable

Any ideas on why it was 'controversial', or was it the normal NImby nonsense of noise, flicker and birds?

lacto
13/05/2009
12:16:56 PM
the usual fantastic idea !!!! but not in my back yard . Origin have just purchased another near ballarat proposal with output of 480MW also going through the planning approval . this one would go close to replacing one of the 8 hazelwood generators which are the most green house polluting in the country yet the gov just approved them to run for another 25 to 30 years

JamesMc
13/05/2009
9:54:22 PM
I wonder if they'd prefer the view of a coal fired powerstation or a nuclear powerstation to windmills?

JAM

jkane
14/05/2009
12:53:35 AM
Ex Federal Minister Ian Campbell attempted to block the Bald Hills windfarm development back in 2006 citing the risk to the endangered Orange Bellied Parrot. The report he cited actually concluded that the effect would be "very small even barely noticeable - compared with natural mortality". It did say it would have a negative impact but it suggested that it should be offset by mitigation and conservation measures.

We all know the most likely explanation that the OBP will go extinct is habitat loss not because less than one a year might fly in to a wind turbine.

It also turned out his decision went against the advice of his own senior department staff.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/04/05/1143916574751.html
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1697953.htm
http://www.environment.gov.au/epbc/publications/pubs/wind-farm-bird-risk-orangebelliedparrot.pdf

Anyway, I think building is supposed to start late this year. The bird thing can be a real issue though. This from the RSPB
"Poorly sited wind farms have caused some major bird casualties, particularly in Tarifa and Navarra in Spain, and the Altamont Pass in California. At these sites, planners failed to consider adequately the likely impact of putting hundreds, or even thousands, of turbines in areas that are important for birds of prey. Tragically, killing many hundreds of birds as a result."

Sarah Gara
14/05/2009
4:07:53 AM
On 13/05/2009 JamesMc wrote:
>I wonder if they'd prefer the view of a coal fired powerstation or a nuclear
>powerstation to windmills?


Wind farms are well pretty -I love the dichotomy of them against nature. x

evanbb
14/05/2009
6:56:27 AM
On 14/05/2009 jkane wrote:
>Ex Federal Minister Ian Campbell attempted to block the Bald Hills windfarm
>development back in 2006 citing the risk to the endangered Orange Bellied
>Parrot.

The OBP thing was funny; on the bird forums, virtually all (not quite) were still behind the farm, realising the absurdity of stopping it to prevent 1/1000 years or some such nonsense.

The siting can be a problem, and the RSPB quote is I think from a Spanish wind farm. It's enormous, covering a wholr dige line for miles. Problem is it's on the migration route for some of the raptors, who like to use the ridge lines for gliding... big problem. There have been positive studies on the impact on birds. Some little Harriers in Scotland can tell when the turbines are off, and sit on them to hunt from.
TonyB
14/05/2009
7:08:21 AM
On 14/05/2009 jkane wrote:
>Ex Federal Minister Ian Campbell attempted to block the Bald Hills windfarm
>development back in 2006 citing the risk to the endangered Orange Bellied
>Parrot. The report he cited actually concluded that the effect would be
>"very small even barely noticeable -

The effect may have been barely noticeable to the minister but I'll bet being smacked in the head by a windmill would be very noticeable to the parrot.
Wendy
14/05/2009
9:14:27 AM
Some years ago I sent a Friend's of the Earth thing on windpower to our local minister (it is a different minister to Lal Lal) and got back one of the more jaw dropping letters I have ever received back from letter writing in my life. It was one of those instrumental in my deciding that writing letters just provided an opportunity for politicians to spout their policy back at you and ignore everything you said. It said that the National Party was opposed to windpower because it had negative environmental, visual, social and economic effects in the local community. I wondered if perhaps he might like to relocate to the Latrobe Valley and tell me about the positive environmental, visual, social and economic effects of his current power source.

evanbb
14/05/2009
9:34:36 AM
On 14/05/2009 TonyB wrote:
>The effect may have been barely noticeable to the minister but I'll bet
>being smacked in the head by a windmill would be very noticeable to the
>parrot.

Of course it would be. However, it would have been noticed by 1 parrot every thousand years. This was actually in the official report.

I would also like to see these debates in context. Sure, in an absolute sense a wind turbine has some asethetic cost, but you needf to compare it to the alternatives, like the La Trobe valley, or the plants on the way to the Wolgan, and the 1000's of hectares lost to coal mining, and compared to the habitat loss aspects of climate change. Like the desal arguments before it, it's a matter of alternatives, not decisions in a vacuum.

JamesMc
14/05/2009
6:00:45 PM
There are old wind farms in America that look like this...
link
Not only are they an obstacle course for birds, but the pylons provide roosting places that attract birds. I think it's reasonable to expect a lot less harm to birds from the modern wind turbines we have in Australia. Especially to orange bellied parrots that fly barely above the ground.

Had a lecture the other night from the one of the engineers who set up the new wind farm just NW of Ballarat. He reckoned that the locals were very happy and that it's just not worth the hastle to have to deal with hostile land owners. Wind farms can go where people appreciate the money and everyone's happy.

JamesMc
davids
14/05/2009
10:58:31 PM
Hi James
You make an excellent point about land owners, and that was the main problem with the windfarm proposals some years ago, including Bald Hills. There was no community unity on the issue, and no weight given to the effect the windfarms would have on decreasing local amenity. I support wind farms generally but couldn't support a wind farm (or 'wind factory' to quote David Bellamy from the meeting in Foster Hall) on the beautiful Porm coast. Sure it is a NIMBY response, but if locals don't fight for their local areas beauty, then who will? It was an incredibly divisive issue for the Sth Gippy community.
Basically wind farms were recommended for where there was the most wind, regardless of the beauty of the area (and tourism areas like the Prom coast do depend on those vista. Now it would seem that other factors like community views and effect on other local businesses carry some weight.
David
lacto
15/05/2009
10:43:22 AM
Are you seriously saying that people wont go to the prom because of bald hill wind farm . On the same arguement surely you should pull down all those ugly power lines that criss cross the whole area and are responsible for thousands of bird deaths per year . How many people have stopped going to Arapiles or the Grampians because of the Chalcum ? Hills wind between Ararat and Beaufort . To me the only way viable wind farms should be stopped if the people opposing such development cut their energy consumption to equate to the amount that that development would produce . Do you really think 40,000 homes would commit to say limit their power intake to a maximum of say 1 kw per hour to stop one wind farm then another 40000 for the next one .Believe me primary producers face little ill effect from a turbine yet the financial benefits are huge and greatly improve the viability of their farms allowing more investment in their own enviroment . Every farmer I know has projects to improve his environment but limited funds stop most of this . Lake Bonney in se south australia i think is 5 by 10 km and has a 260 MW capacity . there is 300 km of such coast and is very close to the Major Connector from Portland to the Latrobe valley and the whole of the eastern seaboard grid with normal consumption up to 30,000MW hourly wind could readily replace a few coal fired plants

evanbb
15/05/2009
11:28:23 AM
On 15/05/2009 lacto wrote:
>Are you seriously saying that...

I tend to agree mostly with this rant, but the problem comes from living in a Democracy. Everyone's opinion counts, regardless of how ludicrous and self serving it is. In China, they'd go up in a flash! Do we really want that? And then where does the argument go? People who oppose a uranium mine on environmental grounds can be accused of ignoring the obvious economic benefits. Christ, it's already happening with the sacred coal exports.

You've got to beat them at their own game, work within the system. I listened to a polly talking about life in the party room, and if you've got a good idea, that's great, but it is nothing if you can't convince others it's a good idea. Railing against 'stupid people' (despite the correctness and obviousness) may not solve the problem, but sitting down and reasonning with them might.

wombly
15/05/2009
11:39:16 AM
For me, wind farms are a truckload less visually intrusive than a bloody great coal mine and power plant.
This should really be the end of the story, but if you want more then you can try thinking about the
environmental effects of digging up coal and burning it, be that the loss of prime agricultural land for the
mine (in many cases), disposing of the overburden and waste (big acid mine drainage problems for
surface streams), huge water use for the condensers, big aquifer drawdowns from having to pump the
mine clear of water, air quality effects surrounding the power plant, greenhouse pollution ... ... ...

Apperently the electricity is cheap if you don't take responding to the effects of any of that into account!
Wendy
15/05/2009
11:58:27 AM
The difference with wind farms and coal is that wind farms can go in a whole range of places, thus a lot more people are going suddenly complain about them in their back yard. Lots of those places are near prime coastal real estate and pretty rolling hills where people with money, power and education live or holiday and this population is much better at kicking up a fuss about something they don't like than the low socioeconomic groups more typical of the latrobe valley. Plus the coal plants were built years ago when people either didn't realise, or didn't care about the impact of them and there was less of a culture of people having a say. And now they are well and truly established there, their immediate effect is only on a small population who largely have an ambivilent relationship with them (work, money etc vs health and environmental effects) so the rest of the state can blithely ignore the problems whilst jumping up and down at the comparatively minor problems of windfarms which might be in their immediate area.
kieranl
15/05/2009
12:06:42 PM
Was out at Tuki near Creswick, the site of a proposed windfarm, late last year.
The protest signs and installations around the place were really ugly. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The owner's son said that every time one of the protest signs fell or blew over (and it's fairly windy around there) the police would could around and ask him if he had interfered with the signs. He thought it was a great joke.
davids
15/05/2009
12:37:50 PM
>>Are you seriously saying that people wont go to the prom because of bald hill wind farm
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the views of local landowners and small business (mainly tourism) owners should have a say in a project that will have an impact on them.
>>that wind farms can go in a whole range of places
that's the point. The views of the community should have some weight in the planning decisions. The PROM coast is not the only windy place in Victoria. I believe that this didn't happen in the past, and now does. Many (most?) communities will welcome the increased revenue.
David

Richard
15/05/2009
12:41:27 PM
Honestly, i think wind farms kinda look futuristic and have some sort of alluring appeal. Granted, i don't live near any, and have to look at them every day, but I hope if i did, i'd put the planet ahead of any personal dislike I might have with them.
...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/05/2009
12:59:51 PM
I heard there was a proposal made recently to put them on top of Arapiles (amongst other high locations identified), but the wind consistency was still being looked into.
Do tourists have a say in such amenity?














(;-)
dmnz
15/05/2009
2:43:47 PM
isnt it better to reduce demand than to find cleaner supply? it's cleaner but still dirty in some sense!

 Page 1 of 41. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 300 | 301 to 320 | 321 to 340 | 341 to 360 | 361 to 380 | 381 to 400 | 401 to 420 | 421 to 440 | 441 to 460 | 461 to 480 | 481 to 500 | 501 to 520 | 521 to 540 | 541 to 560 | 561 to 580 | 581 to 600 | 601 to 620 | 621 to 640 | 641 to 660 | 661 to 680 | 681 to 700 | 701 to 720 | 721 to 740 | 741 to 760 | 761 to 780 | 781 to 800 | 801 to 818
There are 818 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints