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Ethics and Arrogance


namesake

8-Aug-2008
2:14:18 PM

So I am just wondering; is glueing on holds that have come off a problem, back on to rock, acceptable where you come from?
The way I see it, in development of routes, if it comes off, it wasn't meant to be there. It wasn't structurally sound. The route needed better cleaning etc. If it comes off you should learn to climb harder. You get the picture?
So what gives a person the right to turn up to a small developing bouldering area on PRIVATE property, to then go glueing holds back onto rock?
I don't really care what your name is, who you are in the climbing community, where you come from, how hard you climb, and how great you think your shit stinks. You must be one arrogant c**t (and I never use that word).
First I doubt you got permission from the land owner to be there.
Second you probably haven't asked the land owner if they agree with your assumption that glueing is ok.
Third, why is it so important to go to all the trouble of finding out the best glue to use to restick a hold. I know! Why don't you just take one of those great purple indoor plastic holds and bolt it right in place where it suits you. What is the difference anyway? Glue is artificial right?
If you are climbing outdoors maybe you should consider accepting the rock the way it is. If you can't do that then go back to the indoor plastic, and take your attitude with you.
Where do people draw the line, seriously?


Capt_mulch

8-Aug-2008
2:18:55 PM

Watch it! I seem to remember Wallwombat having lots of trouble with ethnics and arrogance...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Aug-2008
2:28:06 PM

... good thing the perpetrator did not chip it instead?

>having lots of trouble with ethnics and arrogance...
Heh, heh, heh. Liked the extra 'n' Capt.


namesake

8-Aug-2008
2:38:49 PM

Well who's to say if they can go that low that they are not chipping?
I mean if they are that desperate for a hold.
Please do tell about wall wombat?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Aug-2008
2:55:02 PM

You are obviously fired up and probably with good reason.

You asked earlier
>is glueing on holds that have come off a problem, back on to rock, acceptable where you come from?

Glueing of holds is not a new phenomenon.

I don't bother with this sort of stuff myself, but I have noticed key holds retroglued on certain iconic climbs that I have done. I can understand why it has been done. If it is stabilising what is already there then I don't have an issue with it, as long as it has not been done messily.

Glueing/bolting additional holds or chipping holds, on natural rock is a greater ethical transgression imo.

Private land, access issues and consent for what is/n't done are separate matters; and appropriate permission and 'consensus' should be arrived at for those.

>Ethics and Arrogance
~> good title for a climb name?
Heh, heh, heh.


namesake

8-Aug-2008
3:01:15 PM

yeah we could put that name on one of the classics that is all glued! Great one! Would only be appropriate.

Paul

8-Aug-2008
3:12:00 PM

While we are winging about ethics, just a little gym rant. When you are leading in the gym and there is someone on a top rope, ask them if they have finished before you start climbing. Last week at hard rock I was doing laps of a climb attempting to work on some endurance. I was shocked to find that in the time between reaching the top and being lowered to the ground someone had started leading it underneath me. Don't just assume because someone has reached the top they have finished, their partner may want to climb. Firstly if they had falen they may have landed on top of me and injured me, secondly it is not that hard to ask if someone has finished on a climb, I seem to be able to manage to do it without any difficulty when I am leading.


muki

8-Aug-2008
3:19:05 PM

There were some climbs on the back of Mitre Rock here at Mt Arapiles that had glued on holds, and
some chipped holds as well, but while the chipping is a permanent scar on the rock, the glue has
deteriorated and the holds have come off.
The climb in my description of the glue on holds is now a pet project and I will try and send it in its
original state (sanse glue ons) if it goes it will be much harder than the grade given, and that's very
satisfying for me.
It sounds like the satisfaction that this mystery glue man is gaining is as artificial as the holds he is
pulling, that said I know of another climb that many aspire to, that also has glued on holds, namely
"Punks in the Gym", this Iconic climb was resurrected after a key hold separated from the wall.
Is it OK .........I think that the glue is a key factor in keeping alive a climb that needs the "key" hold to
be in fact doable, but many will argue that it's not natural to glue on holds, but it's not natural to have a
bolt to clip, or have rubber on our feet, or have a safety line that will arrest a fatal fall, or.........
You get the picture, so I'd say he did it cos he wanted to, that's why alot of us climbers do what we do.
And the difference is that he glued on something that was already there, as apposed to something that
was never there like a "great purple indoor plastic hold" so he was returning it to its original position on
the climb, your position has been very clearly made, you are against such artificial constructs, thats
your opinion and you are entitled to it.
But the attitude that you have made it with rivals the attitude of the perpetrator of the glue on.
Get over it, have a "civil" talk/chat with him, it might be that he is unaware of your opinion and will
change his mind about what he has done, and not do it again ?
Or not ?
Ethics man......... what can we do about a difference of opinion ? probably not much, other than talk
about why we think it's better to do things one way, or another way, many ways of doing things...
ultimately our morals will dictate our ethics, we all have different moral codes..........
But jumping up and down about it won't change anything will it ?
lead by example, have a chat, maybe he doesn't know any better, if you think you do, then show him.
But be prepared to have him accuse you of being Arrogant!


Capt_mulch

8-Aug-2008
3:36:57 PM

Mike Law-Smith, that bastion of Canberra granite, was not one to hold back on chipping a hold where he felt it was warranted.

I'm going to put up a climb in my little quarry tomorrow and make sure I chip some holds, bash pitons, stick in a bolt, then pull on a 'draw - name? - Ethics and Arrogance!

I've just been just been reading Dark Shadows Falling by Joe Simpson, and he has a long rave in there about ethics. I reckon ethics are a bit like religion, best kept to yourself. I used to think that if you couldn't make the climb, you should be lowered off. These days, I'll hangdog and batman the rope with the best of them - I'm having fun!!! :-)


phil_nev

8-Aug-2008
3:50:13 PM

So which crag are we talking about here?

JamieF

8-Aug-2008
3:53:12 PM

On 8/08/2008 namesake wrote:
>So I am just wondering; is glueing on holds that have come off a problem,
>back on to rock, acceptable where you come from?
>The way I see it, in development of routes, if it comes off, it wasn't
>meant to be there.

I pulled a big hold off near the top of a V0 at the Balkans recently (The Downside, Frontline), stupidly bouldering when the rock was not fully dry. I still have it and was considering whether gluing it back on was a good idea, especially since it's a long-established and fun beginner line. I'm quite interested in what people think of this, particularly anyone familiar with the problem. I would never have thought this was remotely in the same league as chipping, but maybe for some it is?

Jamie


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Aug-2008
3:56:24 PM

*In the spirit of thread title ...

Eh you lot. I take issue with all this posturing and retro-posturing with posts on this website.
Is it not enough to simply post your ascendency/ies without having to restate it ad-nauseam?
This ‘look at me, look at me’ approach is simply arrogant I tell you!

And talk about ethics; when are the trads going to ever start respecting the gym heros and practitioners of bouldering, let alone Parkour practioners?; not to mention that unloved species who write guidebooks (with or without perforated spine pages), let alone not allowing aid climbers to use their hammers on sport routes!!
Where has respect gone I ask?
It is just not good enough I tell you.

Why can’t poor internet addicted souls argue the toss about the poofteenth percentage of overkill in a belay setup; whether anodised nuts are prettier than plain ones; if marketing forces are behind new inventions such as povvolettes!; or if pink ropes are trendier than brand x no matter the gossamer diameter?
If I want to use glue on, or chip my computer screen, I will I tell you; and I don’t give a flying toss about what it hasn’t done on grit!

Flame me if you want but you will never dampen my arrogance! I am ethically superior and that is that. No debate. No correspondence entered into.
Mods and trolls rule! United they may post, but unroped the masses hope they fall!
Bring back the executed ones (banned posters and irrelevant threads), I say!
Long may Burnley gunged holds rule!!

post edit:
Forgot to mention many other areas like finding climbing ~~dates~~ partners; buying my new and unused climbing bling; why the acco happened; how the search function doesn't work; textspeak language in posts; rings vs bolts; off-topic posts; yaddah, yaddah, yaddah; the list goes on.

... and especially signing off with
:)
;-)
8w(

Deep breath.
Slow twitching stops.
The bold runout posting-crux is past.
Normalicy resumes.

(*Not. ~> Tongue in cheek)


manacubus

8-Aug-2008
4:24:51 PM

Ethics? How about putting your real name in your profile?


D.Lodge

8-Aug-2008
4:41:21 PM

I think the big thing to try it without the hold in question first to see if it still goes. You may get a first broken ascent hahaha. Then you can look at glueing it on but it may not even be worth it in the long run.

dalai

8-Aug-2008
5:10:33 PM

Sika Sikadur®-31

Problem solved...


JamesMc

8-Aug-2008
5:24:50 PM

Namesake,
If you're going to bag someone in a public forum (assuming that others can guess who you are referring to) then please have the guts and decency to identify yourself.

JamesMc


Capt_mulch

8-Aug-2008
5:38:45 PM

On 8/08/2008 JamesMc wrote:
>Namesake,
> If you're going to bag someone in a public forum (assuming
>that others can guess who you are referring to) then please have the guts
>and decency to identify yourself.
>
>JamesMc
>
Which is exactly my beef with One Day Zero pretending he is Damian Javanovich ( Canberra climber, nice guy). BTW ODZ - nice photo of you in the ACT Granite guide.


rodw

9-Aug-2008
10:19:26 AM

Agree with the above, going anonymous and spraying makes you a wanker....and until ya bother identifying your self.....your views aint worth crap.

Btw the main problem with your post was you said you may as well bolt a purple hold on...I mean wtf??..everyone knows that a hold has to be fluro orange to be ethical.


climbingfool

9-Aug-2008
11:08:22 AM

i think the only ethics that matter in this case, is the landowner's.

the fact the action was taken without attempting to contact the landowner is pretty slack.


Climboholic

9-Aug-2008
6:18:52 PM

Was this an established route or a new route? There is a big difference!
It is my opinion that it is acceptable to glue a broken hold back on to retain the moves of the original route. I could understand your rant if it was a route you put up then someone glued on a hold to bring it down to their level.
The only grey area I can see is if it was a new route on which the hold broke off during cleaning or attempting the first ascent.

There are 41 messages in this topic.