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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 194
Author
Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!
Jonesy
20/12/2005
2:49:50 PM
I was in Nati for a flying visit last week and visited some old favorites out at Araps. Just gotta say that some of the rebolting and RETROBOLTING that's going on out there really concerns me. While I totally agree that shitty old bolts should be replaced by bomber (preferably stainless glue-in's) and I absolutely applaud the time and dedication of the people doing the replacing, it just seems like preserving a sense of history should also be considered. Especially at a place with such a rich and wonderous history as Arapiles.

A specific example of the sanitization that I saw was on Mind Arthritis on the Pharos - an amazing route that has to be one of the top 5 pitches at the Mount. I fully agree that this route needed re-equipping, but the replacment of the final PEG should be reconsidered. When onsighting the route, getting to the peg was so exciting as it looked completely bomber from below, but after reaching it you realised that it would only hold body weight and that you'd have to climb swimmingly for the top with your heart in your mouth! While being very engaging, this was infact completely safe as you could take a 40m fall into space from that position and not hit a thing (in reality the fall would be less than 8m). To replace the peg with a bolt (and incidentally remove it completely) destroys the compelling finish and much of the interest of the route.

I think it's important to acknowledge that this route was done at time when "boldness was back" and the likes of Carrigan and the Shepards were laying it down. Treading in the footsteps of those preceding us is one of the things that makes climbing so great. When you go and do these routes in the same style as Barber, Morehead, Sorenson or Law, you get to know these visionaries and are privileged to enjoy the same experience as them. For example, why not try leaving the friends on the ground and climbing some of Barber's routes on hexes and nuts? Respect.

By changing the nature of routes like this I worry that we are ignoring our responsibility and failing to preserve those great footsteps and preventing future generations of climbers from walking those paths. Similarly all of Claw's artistic implants have extracted from Slopin Sleazin to be repalced by homogenized rings. Boring. For sure re-equip, but leave the odd old bit in to be marvelled at like some sort of hanging museum.

So then there's also the RING issue..... what's wrong with a few glued in stainless carrots? Debutantes and Centipedes looks atrocious with those stinking rings poking out and is so much easier now that you don't have to place the hanger. For me, the experience of climbing this route has been lessened.

Thoughts?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/12/2005
4:12:16 PM
Well said Jonesy.
I agree ! ~> There should be consideration for history and adventure when re-equipping.

++++++++++++++++++++++
Post edit:

KP
Online Now
20/12/2005
4:14:48 PM
Said; (then deleted), ...
>you havn't even been to araps dude... how can you possibly agree !?!
>my head hurts!

Stay cool KP, (from your profile) ...
>We can all be free....
>Maybe not in words, maybe not in looks....
>But with your mind.
:)

simey
20/12/2005
4:27:28 PM
Good summary Jonesy.

Although most of the re-bolting work at Arapiles has been done very well with regard placing stainless steel bolts, coloured hangers and the patching up of old holes, I am surprised at the liberties taken with some of the mega-classic routes.

There is no need to replace every fixed piece to make a route 'safe'. Aspiring re-bolters should replace fixed gear in a manner that retains some of the original character of the climb.

And although I am glad to see most carrot bolts replaced, it would be nice to see a few sporty classics (Have a Good Flight was a prime example) keeping their old character. There were plenty of memorable stories of climbers fumbling or dropping brackets and of belayers trying to throw them back so that climbers could finish their onsight. The climb is now rebolted in a way that makes it indistinguishable from tens of thousands of other sport routes around the world.

But the thing that suprises me even more is the fact that some of these routes have been rebolted in a manner which doesn't take advantage of the obvious clipping points to get the 'draws on. Once the draws are on, it is usually not too bad to clip the rope in... but why are routes being bolted this way?!!




shaggy
20/12/2005
6:00:35 PM
Simey, Whilst I agree with you on a couple of your points, especially the stupid bolting which favors redpointing, but......
We have the technology to make artificial gear unobtrusive and it is not so difficult, but the replacment of dodgy carrots with carrots (well, glued in stainless hangerless bolts, to be more correct), to me seems quite silly.

Carrot bolts were never a good idea, and the placement of such carrots by certain members of the climbing community was even a worse idea. Does the fumbling around with redundant hangers really make a climb what it is?? Come on! If a climb is so pox that it requires the placement of hangers, why would you be on it? As for the classics, like all the ones mentioned, fine, leave a couple in, as history reminders of how archeic our climbing technologies were!

But that is the past, the climbing scene has changed, unfortunately we have to also deal with the lowest common demominator of todays climbers, and at the end of the day, there are lots of idiot out there, who dont understand their own capabilities.

Anyway, this topic has been absolutely flogged, but, can you imagine how a carrot bolt would look with all those hundreds of people who want to wing off 'Have a good flight" these days?
Nottobetaken
20/12/2005
8:25:33 PM
On 20/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:

Jonesy,
Thanks for the interesting post. I agree with some of what you have said -
but of course not all of it.

>I think it's important to acknowledge that this route was done at time
>when "boldness was back" and the likes of Carrigan and the Shepards were
>laying it down. Treading in the footsteps of those preceding us is one
>of the things that makes climbing so great. When you go and do these routes
>in the same style as Barber, Morehead, Sorenson or Law, you get to know
>these visionaries and are privileged to enjoy the same experience as them.
> For example, why not try leaving the friends on the ground and climbing
>some of Barber's routes on hexes and nuts? Respect.

For real - and especially in terms of something like Mind Arthritis.
Replacing the peg was unwarranted as far as I'm concerned - as it indeed
added to the character of the route. However, I don't think that there's
many instances of out-right retrobolting going on in general. I also
understand to some degree the want to maintain museum relics - but really -
if it's a bolt - then it might as well be a good one.


>Similarly all of Claw's artistic implants have extracted from Slopin Sleazin to be repalced
>by homogenized rings. Boring. For sure re-equip, but leave the odd old
>bit in to be marvelled at like some sort of hanging museum.

You mean like all the crap that's hanging off Procul, Anxiety etc? Why? When
the NBF cleaned up Aftermath (removed 3 ancient carrots from memory) and
replaced all of those with just 1 single bolt - I think they were doing us
all a favour. Procul looks like shit when you climb it - there's enough
ironmongery on that thing to melt down and make into a small tricycle! Why
not get rid of these museum relics and replace the three 1m-apart-carrots
with just one new bolt (or none at all).

I can see your point with carrots vs rings - but this has and will always be
an issue for some people (see the many topics already raised on this
subject). Personally I regard the use of rings (or fixed hangers) as a
logical step in gear modification - similar to the likes of everything else
that we as climbers have brought on board to help us get up a route
(chalk/better shoes/camming devices etc). Just like everything else in this
world - climbing has moved on - for better or for worse - but no longer are
you going to find people having to wear EB's and rack up sans a set of
Friends. But I won't dribble on about the carrot vs ring saga. I'm all for
minimalising the impact (visually) of bolts - but that can still be done with
a bit of paint (as witnessed by the majority of recently placed bolts (fixed
hangers or rings) at Araps).

You should have a look at my thread on Tjuringa to do with the second pitch
- as this also touches on the same issues to some degree. The fixed piece in
the roof (the only fixed piece) is now redundant. It is highly unlikely that it
was in this state upon Tobin's first ascent. This begs the question: Should it be
replaced - or should it (in line with the museum relic theme) be left for the next aspiring leader to perhaps take a fall on it - and suffer the consequences?

I understand the want to keep these routes as a part of history - but surely if the 'fixed piece' has deteriorated (on any route) - then it's up for replacement. If there hadn't been a fixed piece there to begin with - then fair enough - leave as is.

I could be wrong, but I think the small amounts of retroing taking place are on routes deemed to be virtual sport routes anyway (Have A Good../MA etc). The piton on MA was probably replaced with this line of thinking in mind - but like you say - a fall at this point (if it failed) would be big - but not dangerous. Replacing something like the piton on Tjuringa is of far more value as I see it - but that's another topic!

Eduardo Slabofvic
20/12/2005
9:13:32 PM
All metal will corrode eventually, therefore whatever bolt gets put in, wherever that may be, should be one where its redundancy and ultimate replacement is considered as part of its design. These are available.
maxdacat
21/12/2005
12:35:56 AM
not really sure i find dropping brackets "fun"....more like a pain in the arse.

i don't see what's so bad about replacing a dodgy piton.....if it's like some climbs in the bluies then it's probably in a thin crack that will take modern micro wires no?

there is an element of history on lots of these climbs but part of that history was placing all manner of fixed gear as dictated by the limits of the technology at the time.....technology has moved on so naturally the type of fixed pro that is available has improved.....why not use it....if you want to scare yourself just miss afew clips.
simey
21/12/2005
9:24:14 AM
On 20/12/2005 shaggy wrote:
>We have the technology to make artificial gear unobtrusive and it is not
>so difficult, but the replacment of dodgy carrots with carrots (well, glued
>in stainless hangerless bolts, to be more correct), to me seems quite silly.

I'm not advocating the continued use of carrots throughout Arapiles, but with regard Have a Good Flight... it was the classic 80s clip-up (a forerunner to what is now sport-climbing). I would nominate it as a heritage-listed route and retain carrot bolts and the fixed sling to preserve an inkling of history (keep a little box of brackets at the base of the route with instructions on how to use).

As for the re-bolting of Aftermath... what a complete waste of time. This was established as an aid route (hence the short bolt ladder) and later freed. These old bolts were very much a part of the character of the route and the choice on lead was, 'Do I clip just one and go?', or 'Do I clip them all (and get more pumped)?'. The beauty of this decision was that you were never exposed to any danger in the first place as a worse case scenario fall (stripping all the bolts) would only leave you dangling in space.

As for Procol Harum... the bolts on this shouldn't be touched or replaced. Firstly, they are completely unnecessary with modern protection. As for the route's history... well they don't get much more historic than this... (old aid test-piece, country's first 26, blah, blah, blah). I was really pissed off with the new bolt added to the wide section up high (I'll probably get around to removing it). Not only is this section protectable with bigger gear, but even if you chose not to protect it, a worst case scenario is simply a slightly bigger fall into space.

As for Anxiety Neurosis... well my opinions on that differ... I wouldn't mind seeing a bolt added to replace the upside piton in the roof at the start of the climb. There is no other gear to back up this piton and a fall could be really nasty. Likewise I wouldn't mind seeing one or two of the old aid bolts replaced at the start of the second pitch. This pitch relys on shitty bolts as your only protection straight off the belay.

The point of bringing up this whole debate once again is to remind re-bolters and retro-bolters that they are still getting it wrong in situations that don't require their action. They need to look at the bigger picture and show a bit more imagination and understanding prior to pulling the drill out.

drdeviousii
21/12/2005
9:37:20 AM
I have some old Claw era rusty carrots you can use to rebolt Anxiety. I hear that mammut nylon tape is the bomb for keeping these bolts from falling out. We want to make sure it is an authentic old school experience for future climbers.
KP
21/12/2005
9:37:40 AM
carrots are great.
simey
21/12/2005
9:47:16 AM
On 21/12/2005 drdeviousii wrote:
>I have some old Claw era rusty carrots you can use to rebolt Anxiety. I
>hear that mammut nylon tape is the bomb for keeping these bolts from falling
>out. We want to make sure it is an authentic old school experience for
>future climbers.

At least Claw placed his bizarro protection in places you could clip easily, unlike our wonderful re-bolting friends who decide their mega-breaking-strain bolts are better placed being just out of reach.

nmonteith
21/12/2005
10:02:34 AM
On 21/12/2005 simey wrote:
>bolts are better placed being just out of reach.

That comment scares me considering how tall you are Simey! Maybe you are trying to clip them from too
low? Whats wrong with attempting to recycle the original bolt hole so the clip is exactly the same as
when the route was first done?
spicelab
21/12/2005
11:09:18 AM
On 20/12/2005 shaggy wrote:
the replacment of dodgy carrots with carrots (well, glued
>in stainless hangerless bolts, to be more correct), to me seems quite silly.
>
>Carrot bolts were never a good idea, and the placement of such carrots
>by certain members of the climbing community was even a worse idea. Does
>the fumbling around with redundant hangers really make a climb what it
>is?? Come on! If a climb is so pox that it requires the placement of hangers,
>why would you be on it?

These are some pretty subjective and superficial arguments against carrots.

The main undeniable advantage carrot bolts have over rings or fixed hangers is their relatively lower visual and environmental impact. When climbers dispute this it just exposes their true motives they are trying really hard not to display. Rather than be forthcoming that it is the 'can't be f---ed' factor which eclipses all other concerns, a bunch of pseudo-pragmatic justifications abound which still glaringly beg the question of whether glue-in stainless steel carrots can be just as solid.

And wouldn't fumbling around with, ahem, 'redundant' hangers be kind of akin to fumbling around with natural gear?

I'm essentially all for rings on sport routes but if a route has natural gear for most or part of it then rings and hangers seem pretty superfluous.


nmonteith
21/12/2005
11:23:33 AM
On 21/12/2005 spicelab wrote:
>beg the question of whether
>glue-in stainless steel carrots can be just as solid.

It has been proven (via reseach conducted by the VCC through CISIRO - i think) that glue-in carrots are
inherently weaker than expansion bolts. The bolt itself is as strong - but the keyhole hanger method of
attachment is considerably weaker due to the hanger folding open around the bolt head when loaded. I
can't find the document at the moment but i think the figures were something like - glue-in carrot = 15KN
vrs 12mm Expansion Bolt = 22KN+. What is worth noting is that loads of 15KN are pretty hard to achieve
with dynamic ropes - so the strength differences are fairly subjective in real world scenario.

sticky
21/12/2005
11:35:20 AM
On 21/12/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>It has been proven (via reseach conducted by the VCC through CISIRO -
>i think) that glue-in carrots are
>inherently weaker than expansion bolts. The bolt itself is as strong -
>but the keyhole hanger method of
>attachment is considerably weaker due to the hanger folding open around
>the bolt head when loaded. I

Aside from strength, my concern with carrots is that modern lightweight 'biners are often too thin to properly anchor the bolt hanger to the carrot. I have a mix of Petzl Spirit, Black Diamond Positron and WC Helium biners - and the Petzl and WC biners sometimes aren't big enough to make the bolt hanger secure. Sure, it depends on the bolt, the hanger and the biner; but it's not the best feeling knowing that the runner you have correctly placed could dislodge itself at any time with a little bit of rope drag. And using wires instead of hangers is not realistically a safe alternative, in my view.

Kyle
gfdonc
21/12/2005
11:38:06 AM
Out of interest - can you glue-in an expansion bolt to stop it loosening?
i.e. tighten the bolt but have some glue in there as added security (& to prevent water from entering).
Just curious.

nmonteith
21/12/2005
11:47:19 AM
On 21/12/2005 gfdonc wrote:
>Out of interest - can you glue-in an expansion bolt to stop it loosening?

This is an entirely different subject Steve! Maybe better asked in SCV forums. The quick answer is no -
for all sort of reasons!

nmonteith
21/12/2005
11:49:33 AM
The Victorian Climbing Club has a bolting policy that was created after several years of research and
group consensus. It states....

5.5. When a piton is intentionally removed it should be replaced with a fixed hanger or ringbolt.

5.6. If a piton is unintentionally removed then it should not be replaced if good natural protection is
available. Where good natural protection is not available a fixed hanger or ringbolt should replace the
piton. Old pitons should not be reused once they fall out.

5.7. Piton scars should not be filled. Often natural protection can be placed in the scars so that the rock
isnít damaged any further.
Jonesy
21/12/2005
1:05:16 PM
Good to hear some other opinions on the topic. Just to tweak the debate along a bit and to maybe lower the tone somewhat.... are these routes being retro/rebolted by someone who'd done it in it's previous form, or by a person who wanted to climb it but was unprepared to unless it was re-equipped?

I think it's an important point that re-equipping may be occuring under the guise of a community service when infact it is an inherently selfish act.

In the case of Mind Arthritis, there's plenty of great 26's without runout finishes, so maybe leave a couple of exciting ones for people who want to go and do them. If you've got your heart set on doing the route then alternatively you could top-rope the route first if you don't want to do the runout onsight and then go for the redpoint. Nothing wrong with that, we've all done it from time to time. The top bit we were talking about here is trivial in difficulty compared to the tasty crux below.

As for Procul and Aftermath, once again I think Simey is on the money. Those routes should be left untouched complete with their hanging armaments intact. Neither of them needed anything doing to them.

BTW the quality of the peg on turinga didn't seem to bother Jon Muir on his ascent.....

Also I love SImey's idea about heritage listing and leaving the hangers at the base of HAGF _ a brilliant solution! Let's think outside the box and not go down the path of homogenisation. Open the first page of any guide book "climbing is an inherently dangerous activity". Caveat Emptor.

As for VCC recommendations - what the hell would they know? If we wanted to be part of a club we'd be footy players.
dalai
21/12/2005
1:24:26 PM
On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>Also I love SImey's idea about heritage listing and leaving the hangers
>at the base of HAGF _ a brilliant solution

Since climbers go to the trouble of stealing fixed hangers, how long do you see a box of hangers at the base of HAGF lasting?

As for heritage... yes by all means leave wads of tape and superflous rusty aid bolts littering the wall! How about returning all the ugly tape abseil anchors around the place while we are at it!

The reality is a lot of tat and rusty bolts will continue to litter many cliffs around the country for those wishing to take the "Heritage Climbing Tour"




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