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The ben thing is not dead (aka. failing ethics)

rexonashakewell

21-Sep-2004
2:45:08 AM

Hey this issue is the first thing that's flared me up enough to finally write something on
chockstone. (note correct spelling of write people), and I don't believe its dead at all.

Firstly, climbing is about personal challenge, commitment and endeavour, which has been traditionally competitive only in a goading everybody to do better manner. Climbing for ego is and always will be uncool!

The issue is the degrading state of ethics within our sport, not just by Ben (whom I do not know), but by a host of people who wish to commercialise climbing and make it palatable for everyone. If you allow this issue to be quashed to protect someone's bruised ego and to avoid a few inflammatory remarks from high profile morons then your abetting the demise of victorian ethics and condoning the rape of our love.

This thread is not a thinly disguised debate of trad v sport it is a question to everyone about the very essence of why they climb.

It has always been both love and ego that brought people to climb. Love of the mountains and an ego driven desire to consummate that love.

For the people who need a translation, I'm saying that climbing is the same as sex. By all means go out there and rape whatever you ****** like but dont think you can behave like this and not experience the anger of people whose loved one you've desecrated.

No. Sorry wont make it better and neither will the excuse that others did it too. (By the way the bystanders are all accessories).

A sad era has begun in climbing, where the people who have attained but one aspect of climbing brilliance chose to lead their followers and everyone else down a road that history will condemn them for.

So all you would be superstars, take your ego's and your bullshit and pursue a career in football where that behaviour is acceptable. Leave climbing for those who appreciate her and love her without the tyranny of numbers.

Its time people to claim back our love from those who wish to cheapen it.
This is war.

To all the inspirational hard climbers out there whatever your grades make a stand lest all our rock be defiled.

joemor

21-Sep-2004
7:19:00 AM

who cares??

i think 99% of people on here need to get out more.....

phil box

21-Sep-2004
11:54:42 AM

I was out at Frog tuther day and on one of the hardmen climbs which shall remain nameless I was introduced to a possible scandal from way back when. The scandal was that a certain hold may have been chipped to enable the hardmen of the day to be able to send this particular climb. The hold was needed to get past some blankness. After getting a little worked up and all self righteous we all looked at each other and shrugged and agreed that the climb was stellar just the way it is and proceeded to enjoy it for what it now is.

So I agree and give this thread a big fat WHO CARES.

Just say not to controversy. Stirring up crap only serves to drive away the vast majority of reasonable users. Good on you Mike for deleting all the crap from that other thread.

joemor

21-Sep-2004
12:15:22 PM

sorry all i heard was "meh meh meh meh meh meh im a boring thread!"

REXONASHAKEWELL

21-Sep-2004
1:02:20 PM

Meh meh meh blah blah,

Its exactly this attitude I'm talking about, by the way I'm not part of the old guard.

Climbers should give a "insert appropriate expletive"!
and it is this attitude that degrades everyones accomplishments, both past and future.

Climbing is a game and a pointless activity, unless by the manner in which you treat it it becomes something more.

That something more has captured the hearts and imagination of people everywhere for all time from stone age to modern.

People who achieved in climbing are and were respected for the purity of their endeavour and the symbology. No one cares about the history of gymnastics.

Climbing is a form of worship to some wake up before its too late.

REXONASHAKEWELL

21-Sep-2004
1:34:19 PM

By the way, this thread is not a forum for stirring up crap and personal assault like the original and I agree it needed deleting but the issue raised by incident should not be swept into obscurity. hopefully now that all the mud slinging is subsided the topic can be given a proper thorough treatment.

If its boring to you, why are you even bothering to reply. a lack of comment would be a final verdict on the matter. IF you have something positive to add either way on what it means to climb and be a climber by all means say it.

joemor

21-Sep-2004
1:45:51 PM

why is every one sooo worried? how many people are putting up new routes in vic this "controversial" style...???
how many get put up a year?
answer: hardly any/ none.

those few... and yes thats right FEW who do put up routes do so in an ethical manner. the majority of routes are being done in fine ethical style.
things arnt changing.
perhaps you need to get out an see the things that are getting put up to realise that this "problem" isnt.

phil box

21-Sep-2004
1:51:25 PM

On 21/09/2004 REXONASHAKEWELL wrote:
>By the way, this thread is not a forum for stirring up crap and personal
>assault like the original and I agree it needed deleting but the issue
>raised by incident should not be swept into obscurity. hopefully now that
>all the mud slinging is subsided the topic can be given a proper thorough
>treatment.

I`m jiggy with that. I agree keep the personal attacks out of the thread and discuss the issue and not the man and I reckon that we have got a thread going here.

So chipping is the subject. Chipping is not cool, end of story, thread over. ;)) Yeah I know too simplistic and not neat enough to satisfy those who would like to keep the issue on the boil and discuss all the permutations ad nauseum ad infinitum.

I guess for me one of the issues is forgiveness, do we forgive and forget a chipper who has obviously learned a valuable lesson. I say we do. We certainly should not forget to learn the lesson ourselves and we should definitely be passing on the ethic of not chipping to the younger generation of climbing developers that will inevitably come along.

This is why I am a great believer in mentoring the up and coming generations of climbers. Some of those people will ultimately be drawn to wishing to start to develop climbs. They need to have the flame passed onto them. I reckon the old school way of keeping everything to yourself is over. The old school guys need to mentor the younger guys otherwise mistakes will be made.

And I still do not wish to identify the climb at Frog to which I am referring.

REXONASHAKEWELL

21-Sep-2004
2:26:14 PM

Not so worried about the one incident

nor do I see the behaviour of people putting up routes as generally anything less than impecable. with the amount of personal effort and funding spent to ensure a safe climb blah etc.

I couldn't disagree with you less about mentoring, but my issue is about what do you mentor people in. Ethics aren't just a set of rules, theyre about the aesthetic. (and the crowd goes blah blah old discussion heard before.) yeah well Its not so much chipping but the attitude that allowed someone to think it would be ok in the first place. The number of people that rushed to the defence is a character reference enough for me to know that the perpetrator is a good bloke.

So the mentoring system seems to be failing in terms of passing on a respect and love of the environment. We all accept that our existence particularly as climbers is somewhat destructive and I think most people have come to terms with that. But why do you think climbing and aboriginal/landowner interests have clashed?

how do you feel about the manner in which people repeat routes today?

Take arapiles or summerday as an example how many cigarette butts, lolly wrappers etc can you pick up (on the crags) on a typical days bumbling. Are these the freak accidents of something falling out of your pockets, or is it too frequent for that. Dont blame tourists its not them they dont end up half way up cliffs at belay ledges.

So the commercialisation of climbing and the ease of accessibility are just some of the forces I want to blame. I dont think anyone would disagree that a sport climb attracts ascents, they often attract me.

How many people who call themselves climbers do not even own a trad rack or know what ones used for. How do you mentor them when they have already decided that sport is the only way to go, with people posting facetious comments about a route being crap because they didn't need to sink steel.

The new cool aesthetic of consumer climbing is an evolutionary path to extinction of spirit, adventure and love.

Thats all for now, Just some things to think about.

MrKyle

22-Sep-2004
9:02:51 AM

REX, I'll back you on this one.

The time is past for climbers to get away with behaving like children or vigilantes (even though many are one or the other). Climbers should make an effort to stick to some kind of generally understood code of conduct.
Sure, one incident doesn't really matter, but by and large, we need to act thoughtfully and responsibly. Dodgy acts by individuals will always occur, and will generally be tolerated, but they can NOT be condoned by the community at large.

Get out, be free, run around and do whatever the hell you want - but respect the limited resources that we have.

Bernardo

22-Sep-2004
2:07:00 PM

Why do you feel that sports climbers need to be mentored?
i totaly agree on teh environmental ethics aspect, i hate pulling onto a belay ledge somewhere half way up tiger wall or anyother spot at arapiles to find cigarrets butts adn similar, this is somehtign that needs to be stopped.
but why should we mentor soports climbers about trad? sport is just as legitimate as trad.
or owuld you say that that all trad climbers should be thought the ways of big wall adn aid, or even mounteneering?
its all climbing, each one different adn each group has their own gear adn culture but its still climbing adn more often than not we are all doign it for the same reasons. love of the rock, the environemnt adn the feelign we get from climbign adn challenging ourselfs.
:)

REXONASHAKEWELL

22-Sep-2004
3:05:06 PM

THANKS Mr kyle I'm glad someone agrees that there is a problem that shouldn't be just swept under the carpet.

BErnado I cant disagree with anything youv'e said, I didn't intentionally dis sport climbing just stirring a bit. I love sport and trad and al forms of climbing. Climbers are climbers. I dont think of a superiority between trad people over sport people, (not publicly anyway), thats a style question. People sporting the latest fashion always think they exude the best style but we all know the truth.

I do feel that sport climbing because of its accessibility doesn't only attract people with the purity of endeavour you describe. It's the way cool, gym bred do a lead belay lesson buy a set of draws start climbing which is just all to easy.

Its akin to when you put a big hotel in the middle of an amazing wilderness area and turkeys flock to tick the experience off their list. Climbing is a wilderness pursuit and people are willing to sacrifice comfort for this.

Wilderness people (walkers, climbers etc) as a broad catagory possess a particular ethic set based upon L*** (think i've used that word too much) sure they do damage and behave like dickheads and wankers often, but a tread lightly ethic and intent is there.

Its not about mentoring sports climbers per se. Its just that because the tread lightly rules have been bent a little to allow the use of big power toys a certain minority develop this smugness about being the latest fashion, cool and engage in wholesale urbanisation of the wilderness. This gives the wrong attitude and value set to newbies who would never have found themselves in the bush if not for a climbing gym and a vicious cycle which we see now has begun.

Its flourished in europe to the point where they look at our predominantly trad areas as quaint.

Ok I'm using the sport vs trad shit a bit to fuel this thread, but My real gripe is with the attitude that some people calling themselves climbers have and thats what needs mentoring or plain excluding regardless of how elitist this sounds.

James

23-Sep-2004
7:44:08 PM

don't agree with absoloutely everything you are yabbering on about rexon, but I think I get you're 'vibe' & pretty much agree. I've probably quoted John Sherman before, but the whole "... doesn't matter what ethics you use so long as they don't affect other..." thing is still relevant. Perhaps some people need a little more help in realising what things affect others.

rock weasel

26-Sep-2004
8:41:09 PM

That Sherman quote is a good principle to apply to the way we alter the rock. Its when ambition and egos get in the way that people do things that are ill-conceived, to put it euphemistically.

An aside: 'Chris Sharma' has the same literary flair that a certain Rock correspondent has...

There are 14 messages in this topic.