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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
Why rope access kooks have no place in climbing
One Day Hero
5-May-2015
2:22:31 PM
Hey Snacks, do you reckon you could post up all your off-topic drivel from the Centenial Trev thread over to here?

It'd be way more efficient if people could just check in without the other stuff and see why it'd such a nightmare if climbing ever became polluted with irata bullshit.

Ta

Snacks
5-May-2015
2:49:14 PM
You're the only bolter I have heard of that uses a safety back-up line while bolting, what gave you that idea? ...

I don't think it should become polluted with it. Though, OEH and other governing bodies should have more of an understanding of what is involved...

Instead, they often get volleys of illogical abuse spewed back at them from what they collectively refer to as "the climbing community" which doesn't seem to help much.

And no, that wasn't a typo, though you may see ODH as a governing body.
One Day Hero
5-May-2015
3:48:04 PM
On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>You're the only bolter I have heard of that uses a safety back-up line
>while bolting, what gave you that idea? ...

Started doing this prior to starting rope access. A backup rope isn't some kind of genius idea invented by irata, although they probably think they did.

>Instead, they often get volleys of illogical abuse spewed back at them
>from what they collectively refer to as "the climbing community" which
>doesn't seem to help much.

Most of it isn't illogical abuse, it's very sensible suspicion of an industry which sees itself as the only authority when it comes to doing things safely on ropes. I really hope you don't get your irata on like this when coming into contact with land managers. I can't think of anything worse for climbing than having it go down the rope access road.

Eduardo Slabofvic
5-May-2015
4:02:33 PM
On 5/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
> why it'd such a nightmare if climbing ever became polluted
>with irata bullshit.
>
>Ta

Because IRATA 1 identifies that you are so completely incompetent that you have to have someone else set up your rope for you.

IRATA 2 identifies that you're still incompetent to the extent that you have to have someone watch you set up your rope to make sure you don't stuff it up.

IRATA 3 identifies that you can abseil.

None of which identifies that you can climb.

Snacks
5-May-2015
4:22:50 PM
On 5/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>>You're the only bolter I have heard of that uses a safety back-up line
>>while bolting, what gave you that idea? ...
>
>Started doing this prior to starting rope access. A backup rope isn't
>some kind of genius idea invented by irata, although they probably think
>they did.

But you admit that it's a good idea? Clearly. And one that rope access workers should be encouraged to follow for the reasons you presumably do it and not simply because it is IRATA...

You sound like you have a bone to pick with IRATA... that's of no concern to me.

>>Instead, they often get volleys of illogical abuse spewed back at them
>>from what they collectively refer to as "the climbing community" which
>>doesn't seem to help much.
>
>Most of it isn't illogical abuse, it's very sensible suspicion of an industry
>which sees itself as the only authority when it comes to doing things safely
>on ropes. I really hope you don't get your irata on like this when coming
>into contact with land managers. I can't think of anything worse for climbing
>than having it go down the rope access road.

True, but that's not my aim and it would never happen.

Get my IRATA on? Any land owners I have spoken to about accessing their land for climbing has been done in private and I don't relay their permission publicly. I also tell them that they are free to forget our conversation ever took place if I was in an accident and they can claim I was trespassing without their permission. The responsibility is entirely my own.

Unqualified volunteers should not be doing bolting or de-bolting work on the direct or presumed say so of NPWS. If climbers were be called on to help in this way they should be officially recognised and included under NPWS insurances or similar. I believe this is fair given the risks involved.

Climboholic
5-May-2015
5:49:43 PM
Wow!

I just jumped into the middle of this debate, but already some peoples opinions astound me!
Olbert
5-May-2015
7:25:59 PM
The QLD National Parks experience shows that when they actually realise what is involved they decide to ban the removal of bolts. No public servant will ever sign off on unqualified volunteers doing the debolting and no public servant will ever pay professionals to do the debolting. That leaves qualified volunteers. To do it by the book would necessitate a large outlay of cash from the volunteer - noone is going to do it.

The solution is for climbers to go and debolt it quietly and without NPWS the approval.

There is a very small risk that somebody will be injured in doing so. If that risk is realised then there is a further small risk that the debolter/debolters family will sue the NPWS. This is the worst outcome, however very small risk x small risk equals minute risk. If we make decisions based on minute risks then we would never do anything.

Snacks
5-May-2015
7:36:49 PM
On 5/05/2015 Olbert wrote:
>The QLD National Parks experience shows that when they actually realise
>what is involved they decide to ban the removal of bolts. No public servant
>will ever sign off on unqualified volunteers doing the debolting and no
>public servant will ever pay professionals to do the debolting. That leaves
>qualified volunteers. To do it by the book would necessitate a large outlay
>of cash from the volunteer - noone is going to do it.
>
>The solution is for climbers to go and debolt it quietly and without NPWS
>the approval.
>
>There is a very small risk that somebody will be injured in doing so.
>If that risk is realised then there is a further small risk that the debolter/debolters
>family will sue the NPWS. This is the worst outcome, however very small
>risk x small risk equals minute risk. If we make decisions based on minute
>risks then we would never do anything.


True, it is a small risk...

But then there are very experienced climbers that do have these qualifications that I'd say may or would happily volunteer to remove bolts and have it done safely and with a decent finish from other rendering work or similar they may have done in the past...

The fact people are already talking about tit for tat type responses to some of these bolts being removed is a clear example why getting individuals directly involved to remove the bolts can be a bad idea...
widewetandslippery
6-May-2015
7:55:02 AM
I think having IRATA or any other business collectives such as the ARAA (association is a poor choice of words for these groups) become involved in recreational anchors Is dangerous. We live in an ever growing nanny state and this nanny state is driven by business.
climberman
6-May-2015
8:54:48 AM
On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:

>The fact people are already talking about tit for tat type responses to
>some of these bolts being removed is a clear example why getting individuals,
>and in this case, the main complainant of the bolts, to remove the bolts
>is a bad idea...
>
>That sets things up for such an obviously ugly outcome.

Was he the 'main complainant'? Hipster's post implies that there's a range of issues with them from a Parks perspective.

Yopu're the only one whos's directly mentioned names and 'tit for tat' approaches in this thread, AFAIK.

snacks removed his name yesterday from his info.

Anyway, bleghh. Commercial shit and regulations and shit getting engaged with recreational anything can go get fuked as far as I reckon. I can think of no-where that commercial approach to climbing has benefitted recreational climbers in the Blueys.

Macciza
6-May-2015
9:54:49 AM
On 6/05/2015 climberman wrote:
>Yopu're the only one whos's directly mentioned names and 'tit for tat'
>approaches in this thread, AFAIK.
>snacks removed his name yesterday from his info.
>
I think it was something like Leith Dawes ....

>Anyway, bleghh. Commercial shit and regulations and shit getting engaged
>with recreational anything can go get fuked as far as I reckon. I can think
>of no-where that commercial approach to climbing has benefitted recreational
>climbers in the Blueys.
But think of the children . . . With RRATA (recreational not industrial) 1 you would be professionally able to climb safely with backups so long as an RRATA 2 did all your knots and rigging for you, and it would all be on a site professionally developed by an RRATA 3 using absolute best practice, fully certified... How else will the little kiddies be safe ....

Snacks
6-May-2015
3:24:03 PM
On 6/05/2015 climberman wrote:
>On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>
>>The fact people are already talking about tit for tat type responses
>to
>>some of these bolts being removed is a clear example why getting individuals,
>>and in this case, the main complainant of the bolts, to remove the bolts
>>is a bad idea...
>>
>>That sets things up for such an obviously ugly outcome.
>
>Was he the 'main complainant'? Hipster's post implies that there's a range
>of issues with them from a Parks perspective.
>
>Yopu're the only one whos's directly mentioned names and 'tit for tat'
>approaches in this thread, AFAIK.
>
>snacks removed his name yesterday from his info.
>
>Anyway, bleghh. Commercial shit and regulations and shit getting engaged
>with recreational anything can go get fuked as far as I reckon. I can think
>of no-where that commercial approach to climbing has benefitted recreational
>climbers in the Blueys.

I'll leave the obvious messy stuff aside.

It's a pity that is a view of the various professionals that make a living from tour guiding and alike in the mountains...

I've run into several very experienced climbers that first started out by being instructed by commercial guides. Most if not all of them spoke highly of that experience in lieu of not having someone to show them the ropes to begin with. Or do these experiences not count for some reason?

I personally have never had a bad experience with a commercial tour group... But maybe I will someday?

The good Dr
6-May-2015
3:55:05 PM
ODH and Macciza have competition

climberman
7-May-2015
9:15:13 AM
On 6/05/2015 Macciza wrote:
>On 6/05/2015 climberman wrote:
>>Yopu're the only one whos's directly mentioned names and 'tit for tat'
>>approaches in this thread, AFAIK.
>>snacks removed his name yesterday from his info.
>>
>I think it was something like
>
>>Anyway, bleghh. Commercial shit and regulations and shit getting engaged
>>with recreational anything can go get fuked as far as I reckon. I can
>think
>>of no-where that commercial approach to climbing has benefitted recreational
>>climbers in the Blueys.
>But think of the children . . . With RRATA (recreational not industrial)
>1 you would be professionally able to climb safely with backups so long
>as an RRATA 2 did all your knots and rigging for you, and it would all
>be on a site professionally developed by an RRATA 3 using absolute best
>practice, fully certified... How else will the little kiddies be safe ....
>

Macciza I think if he wants to remove it from a website that's perfectly reasonable. I think I did my quoting incorrectly before and it wasn't snacks who quoted names.

wrt commercial stuff.... my view is it has brought in issues that climbing didn't need to worry about until there was a commercial aspect to the activity. They also tie up public recreational land and I kinda get the pips with that, it's a personal thing. If some climbers feel that they have benefitted in their lives from either being group 'guides' or learning in that environment, great. This is seperate from my feeling around commercial use of public lands and 'access rights' when in conflict with recreational users. That said, I'm hardly worrying about it on my cycle commute into town or bitching about it over a beer at the pub.

Snacks
7-May-2015
10:32:00 AM
On 7/05/2015 climberman wrote:
>Macciza I think if he wants to remove it from a website that's perfectly
>reasonable. I think I did my quoting incorrectly before and it wasn't snacks
>who quoted names.
>

Yeah, thanks for acknowledging that as I didn't want to have to trove through all my posts to prove that was the case...


>wrt commercial stuff.... my view is it has brought in issues that climbing
>didn't need to worry about until there was a commercial aspect to the activity.
>They also tie up public recreational land and I kinda get the pips with
>that, it's a personal thing. If some climbers feel that they have benefitted
>in their lives from either being group 'guides' or learning in that environment,
>great. This is seperate from my feeling around commercial use of public
>lands and 'access rights' when in conflict with recreational users. That
>said, I'm hardly worrying about it on my cycle commute into town or bitching
>about it over a beer at the pub.
>

I see your point. It does seem unfair they get 'precendence'? over people that don't want to fork out $$$ for an experience they can self-manage.

On the other hand, how often do experienced climbers on here jump up and down about inexperienced "gym climbers" doing ridiculous things at the crag, that may be avoided if they had forked out for at least some form of commercial instruction?

To people that learn on their own (but probably help from other more experienced climbers, which may be in exchange for belay, sexual services or alike) the prices can seem a bit fleecy, but it's quite a responsibility to link that kind of instruction to your income to your mortgage to your family...

I have been lucky to have had some kick-ass individuals to learn from in Newcastle (JP, Timbo) and also in my time in Sydney (Neil, Mikl, MattB, Jenga)...

Cheers

Macciza
7-May-2015
11:55:42 AM
Not sure what sort of 'precedence' you think that get . . .
If anything the commercial operators pay for the ability to be regulated, and get told how many people and which locations they can operate, particularly canyoning which i also believe is season regulated. Numbers are limited for group safety and to try to avoid overcrowding and to ensure that ordinary non-paying punters have a chance as well. There are other reasons that also affect access to areas and the commercial operators are required to work within whatever guidelines they are issued.

Re commercial climbing instruction, this generally isn't in large groups and again the commercial operators are probably more limited by parks then the experienced recreational climbers who provide instruction to friends at crags, let alone just general climber groups . ..
Mind you I think the focus of this discussion is on rope-access commercial operators involvement in recreational climbing and whether bolting should be to 'industry standards', but I may be wrong . . .

There are 16 messages in this topic.

 

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