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"Once I wandered under this route that I though might go at about gr34, and (from the ground) it looked like you could get one Jesus nut in at about 20 m. Anyway I marked it down as a trad project and thought I'd give it a go one day. I came back 10 years later, halfway on my mission to improve my climbing from grade 14 to 34 and some bastard's bolted it!"
"I cleaned a stonking splitter, 50m of fingerlocks, with good but sparse gear and have been working it for the last month. But I just found out some stooge, who I showed the route to, nicked up during the week, bolted every metre out of it, climbed it and called it 'beardstrokercide'"
cos i reckon my answers will be just a little different...
Retrobolt - to place bolts on a route after it has been led free in another style.
Project - a route as yet unled free in any style
Ergo - you are a muppet as it is not retrobolting
Also - I repeat - Traditional (Trad) climbing evolved using fixed protection. This was subsumed by Chouinard so that he could sell gear, thus corporatise the pursuit of climbing and you have bought into that corporate propoganda.
But if you want to add bolts to the climb, go for it!! Don't ask our permission or post a dumb poll.
There is no crack. The photo shown has nothing to do with Mini Ha ha Falls. However it IS a terrible case of bolting an ACTUAL trad line. (possibly) The only way to really form an opinion is to get on the route in question. Any decent climber could do 'splitwave' at wave wall on gear , however I dont think its a trad line and neither did the first (clean) ascentionist.
On 15/07/2014 onsight wrote:
>Well according to some, as little as two years ago eh Macca, there is no
>such thing as a "trad project". So bolt away!
I have no idea what route this thread is about. But your statement here Simon is illogical. I don't think Macca is arguing that others do not attempt the trad route he has attempted. He is arguing that People do not bolt the trad route he is attempting.
Two very different arguments. Possibly suited to a whole different thread on its own if you really wish to rehash that moment in time.
The poll at the start of this thread is as loaded as a question can come, and thereby invalid for any real discussion.
I could point at a 50m cliff which might go at grade 30 with 1 piece of gear at half height and say: "that's my trad project, that would totally go on trad", thus it's now inviolate by the logic of this thread.
I've said before, a trad climb is based on a trad LINE: an obvious line that is naturally protectable with -say- an average distance between gear of not more than 5m (across its entire length). Some things are obviously trad LINES (such as a clearly naturally protected crack, or perhaps a face with a perfect line of horizontals all the way up for gear), but some things are OBVIOUSLY not a trad LINE, and -since that makes the style it's climbed in contentious- I think that it really comes down to the style of the cliff in question (you'll notice that most of the mixed routes that once encompassed all of Shipley are now bolted routes with the blessing of the First Ascensionists), and -assuming a degree of interest in a contentious line being a "trad" line-, the first shot should be given for the line in question to be climbed on gear. Where that falls flat, then its free to be bolted.
Furthermore, where a line is contentious, to call it a "trad project" necessitates the act of PROJECTING IT, not simply saying: "that's my project" and then letting 6 months lapse between attempts.
>I could point at a 50m cliff which might go at grade 30 with 1 piece of
>gear at half height and say: "that's my trad project, that would totally
>go on trad", thus it's now inviolate by the logic of this thread.
What if I stack 10 much smaller pieces on top of each other and thus making the average distance 5m... ;-)
People should consider a lot of different factors before bolting a route. One such factor is "Is the line protectable on natural gear?"
Someone might be trying it as a trad climb. It might be hard to tell as there is usually little or no trace.
My advice to someone that wants to bolt a potential trad climb is as follows:
"Don't bolt it. If you must climb the line, then Top rope it. If you must lead it, do it on pre-placed gear. If the gear is too far apart, use long slings. Some people consider these to be less pure styles of climbing, but it is better than bolting a trad climb, especially if someone has been trying the line ground up on gear."