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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 50
Author
Rings out 'return of the bolt cutter gang' Mt Yuck

Macciza
9/08/2012
1:37:29 PM
As a much-needed response to the general degradation occurring in Rock-climbing due to spurt-bolters . . .

'The Return of the Bolt-Cutter Gang' will be showing at various cliffs this season to restore things . . .

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! LESS IS MORE! MAINTAIN THE RAGE!
One Day Hero
9/08/2012
2:45:48 PM
Meh, rage is overrated, better just to stay chilled about it and do what needs to be done. Seriously, if you've got a couple of hours free up there, go chop rings at The Egg.......I reckon it'll move things in a positive direction :)

Macciza
9/08/2012
3:27:10 PM
Maybe, but it is the thickening part of the wedge, a slopier slippery slope, a gayer gay abandon, a lamer lameness . . .

I figure they can be cut off with a grinder (on lead?) and then left visible as a warning to future 'de'-generations . . .

What needs to be done is what you said previously; to take a little back, stem the tide etc
Basically rip their rings out . . .

davidn
9/08/2012
3:39:55 PM
Along with bemusement at the disintegration of the other thread, I can't help but scratch my head at the bombast.

Logic suggests that even if only a small proportion of the (much more numerous) sport climbers at the affected areas take as much offense at your mass bolt cutting approach as you have at their retrobolting, the long term end result is probably more likely to be a lot of scarred and wrecked Blueys climbs with just as many bolts as they had beforehand. Not to mention sport climbers grid bolting Arapiles or Booroomba (pick a famous trad area) in retaliation.

I'm taking the cynical view that the 'anything you can do, I can do better' responses are simply the result of boredom and unlikely to result in a new army of Ken Nicholses. You'd have to be dim to talk about something like this beforehand ;)

http://www.splitterchoss.com/2010/04/01/massive-bolt-removal-reported-across-the-country/
One Day Hero
9/08/2012
3:55:08 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>Along with bemusement at the disintegration of the other thread, I can't
>help but scratch my head at the bombast.
>
>Logic suggests that even if only a small proportion of the (much more
>numerous) sport climbers at the affected areas take as much offense at
>your mass bolt cutting approach as you have at their retrobolting, the
>long term end result is probably more likely to be a lot of scarred and
>wrecked Blueys climbs with just as many bolts as they had beforehand.
>Not to mention sport climbers grid bolting Arapiles or Booroomba (pick
>a famous trad area) in retaliation.
>
>I'm taking the cynical view that the 'anything you can do, I can do better'
>responses are simply the result of boredom and unlikely to result in a
>new army of Ken Nicholses. You'd have to be dim to talk about something
>like this beforehand ;)
>
>http://www.splitterchoss.com/2010/04/01/massive-bolt-removal-reported-across-the-country/

Yes Dave, there is always the possibility that things could deteriorate into a nasty tit-for-tat. But what's the alternative? Just allow the ring-clippers to gradually assimilate every good route in the country?
martym
9/08/2012
4:06:27 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:

>http://www.splitterchoss.com/2010/04/01/massive-bolt-removal-reported-across-the-country/

I have not read much of these threads, but I'm glad I clicked that link. Should be in the Friday funnies in case people miss it!

Macciza
9/08/2012
4:54:36 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>Along with bemusement at the disintegration of the other thread, I can't
>help but scratch my head at the bombast.

Well what else am I gonna do - sneak around and do it without warning then not even own up? I'd be sinking to 'their' level . . . Also I am not suggesting 'mass bolt cutting' just maintenance of pre-existing routes as they were; though there are many people today who simply don't know 'how they were' so this may help educate them and in some cases may just surprise them . . . . .

Re Araps / Booroomba etc. Doesn't really matter what gets done here and now, 'they' will get there eventually - Just like Cosmic, 'they' will drag them down when you least expect it, (mind you it has already started anyway) and what will you do then . . .

Hopefully the end result will be a bit more route respect and restraint from the 'retro-ringers' - failing that , the swift removal of further 'unacceptable retroing' of significant routes . . .
I am putting it out there as I know many people feel the same about the way crags and climbs are being treated these days . . .

davidn
9/08/2012
5:02:53 PM
I agree totally. What can you (or anyone) do? If we're really brutally honest about this, probably not much. In 50 or 100 years, we'll all be dead, and all of those crags may well be Europeanised, with bolts every 1.2 metres.

I do sympathise with this issue and agree it goes all one way, rarely the other. It seems like in years to come, trad climbers are going to have to either find and never advertise new crags, just pass them by word of mouth to a in crowd who can be trusted, or retreat to poxy shit crags. Pretty sad.

Macciza
9/08/2012
5:13:06 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>I agree totally. What can you (or anyone) do? If we're really brutally
>honest about this, probably not much. In 50 or 100 years, we'll all be
>dead, and all of those crags may well be Europeanised, with bolts every
>1.2 metres.
>
>I do sympathise with this issue and agree it goes all one way, rarely
>the other. It seems like in years to come, trad climbers are going to
>have to either find and never advertise new crags, just pass them by word
>of mouth to a in crowd who can be trusted, or retreat to poxy shit crags.
> Pretty sad.

It pretty much does go all one way currently - and the response has been a long time coming . . .
Hopefully in years to come a new breed of 'real climbers' will come along and turn the tables . . .

The top-climbers will be 'freeing' the old spurt routes by climbing them on gear or soloing them and removing the unnecessary artificial aids (ie rings)
Being able to actually trad-climb will be valued again, and bolt-clippers will cop the flak and disdain that they had previously dished out . . .
widewetandslippery
9/08/2012
5:16:23 PM
all this ring fixation is kinda creepy pulic toiletesque

kuu
9/08/2012
5:21:46 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>(snip)

>It seems like in years to come, trad climbers are going to
>have to either find and never advertise new crags, just pass them by word
>of mouth to a in crowd who can be trusted, or retreat to poxy shit crags.
> Pretty sad.

But then what happens when the said new crag that's never been advertised is eventually discovered (accidentally perhaps) by the "ring-clippers" who move in and commence to bolt the cliff into submission, completely disregarding any pre-existing "ethic"?

Do the 'tradsters' simply accept this and move on or should they stand their ground and protect the perceived status quo? And if they choose the latter what tactics can they employ?

davidn
9/08/2012
5:25:02 PM
On 9/08/2012 kuu wrote:
>Do the 'tradsters' simply accept this and move on or should they stand
>their ground and protect the perceived status quo? And if they choose the
>latter what tactics can they
>employ?

I was going to post some doom and gloom, but it occurs to me that Blue Lake is the perfect example of a trad crag that should always stay that way in that it's designated a definite no-bolting-ever-ever-don't-touch zone. Perhaps parks can be your friend, in some circumstances?
One Day Hero
9/08/2012
5:27:02 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>and all of those crags may well be Europeanised, with bolts every
>1.2 metres.
>
Rather off topic, but more interesting than agreeing with the rest of your post........The above is a funny little myth, oft repeated by folk who've never been climbing in Europe. I didn't find any of the fabled crags with bolts every meter. In fact, I've never been anywhere overseas which is as uniformly overbolted as Nowra or the Blueys sport crags.

Ceuse was a bit of a shock to the system. You have to be prepared to take 10m whippers every day you climb there, it's quite scary really. I actually suspect that this is why so many Aussie climbers go there, stay a couple of days, then leave and diss the place.............can't handle the big falls.

kuu
9/08/2012
6:07:00 PM
On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>
>I was going to post some doom and gloom, but it occurs to me that Blue
>Lake is the perfect example of a trad crag that should always stay that
>way in that it's designated a definite no-bolting-ever-ever-don't-touch
>zone. Perhaps parks can be your friend, in some circumstances?

Didn't happen in the case of Evans Crown (Tarana) where bolting continued long after NPWS declared it inappropriate (and offensive to the traditional owners).

If the Blue Lake crag was closer to the carpark (and to population centres) I doubt that the 'official' position of Parks would in any way act as a preventive measure.

rodw
9/08/2012
8:28:09 PM
On 9/08/2012 kuu wrote:

>But then what happens when the said new crag that's never been advertised
>is eventually discovered (accidentally perhaps) by the "ring-clippers"
>who move in and commence to bolt the cliff into submission, completely
>disregarding any pre-existing "ethic"?

Disregard seems to infer you know about something and ignore it.....not sure if that applies in this case?

Personally I think this whole the "end of days for trad" dooms day scenario is a bit like the Macarthy era of the 50's in a climbing sense. ..were ODH is playing the Joseph macarthy role to incite the mass and Macca is the J Edgar hoover character trying to implement to changes to turn back the tide for the betterment of society.

climbau
9/08/2012
8:30:44 PM
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/UIAA_Policy_on_preservation_of_natural_rock_for_Adventure_Climbing_-_2012_paper.pdf

and

http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/to_bolt_or_not_to_bolt.pdf

Macciza
9/08/2012
9:44:22 PM
On 9/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>Disregard seems to infer you know about something and ignore it.....not
>sure if that applies in this case?
>
The ethics at play here have been established for decades - Surely even modern climbers must be in some aware of that. If a cliff is being climbed at by Trad climbers, surely a spurt bolter would notice, and 'know something' was up. But given their general track record it is highly likely they'd 'ignore it'

>Personally I think this whole the "end of days for trad" dooms day scenario
>is a bit like the Macarthy era of the 50's in a climbing sense. ..

Personally I am finding this 'new spurt ethic' scenario like pre WWII Germany, with the gyms indoctrinating 'Spurt Youth' to be brainwashed into the superiority of the 'MasterSpurt'; that rungs are the supreme protection and that anything else should not be tolerated. Spurt Climbing is the only true safe climbing and anything else is intrinsically evil, and the reason why you can't get up your uber-hard ring-fests is all due to the existence of Trads.

I am amazed at how many newer climbers seem to have negligible appreciation of Australian climbing history or traditions. I am amazed at how people can grid-ring-bolt an old crag and try to give it a new name and yet not even attempt the proudest, most inviting natural line there, despite having hung a rope down it for a year (longest pre-inspection I've heard of) - at least they did not retro-bolt it. Or how some people can put rings next to a crack on an obviously pre-existing climb whilst ignoring the obvious possibilities on the slab 1 metre to the left . . .

I've had people tell me Shipley was always a 'spurt-climbing' crag and that I really should not be climbing there using natural protection and self-belay (having a bit fun near JH); that I was being dangerous, and setting a bad example? Seriously , I mean WTF?

Oh and I'd prefer to think of myself more like the Democrats trying to keep the spurt bastards a little bit honest, whilst the 'Powers that Be' rape climbing heritage and steal the opportunities and dreams of future generations of true-blue Aussie climbers.

Macciza
9/08/2012
10:17:40 PM
On 9/08/2012 climbau wrote:
>http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/UIAA_Policy_on_preservation_of_natural_rock_for
>Adventure_Climbing_-_2012_paper.pdf
>
>and
>
>http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/to_bolt_or_not_to_bolt.pdf

Thanks for posting those links. Did not realise they had done the recent update.
Clearly these documents show that the RTS retro-ringing is 'unacceptable'.

Those documents should be posted in EVERY climbing gym!!

rodw
9/08/2012
10:51:52 PM
>Surely even modern climbers must be in some aware of that. If a cliff is being climbed >at by Trad climbers, surely a spurt bolter would notice, and 'know something' was up.

Kuu was talking hypothetical about an 'unknown' crag wasn't he?.....with this in mind how would someone know about its history/ethics, is there an aura sounding trad climbing that is noticeable? People should just know?...are we like dog pissing on a trees a quick smell tells us this is someones else's domain?

>Oh and I'd prefer to think of myself more like the Democrats trying to
>keep the spurt bastards a little bit honest, whilst the 'Powers that Be'
>rape climbing heritage and steal the opportunities and dreams of future
>generations of true-blue Aussie climbers.

Lol like McCarthy he to thought he was right and everyone wrong and decided to change/enforce things for what he viewed for the better.....I just think your exaggerating whats happening and being a tad alarmist...this me vs them crap tends to sound a bit silly and tiring after a while.

If you feel so strongly about the bolts..just fukin chop em..why the need to try and garner support on chockstone?...let the games begin I say...history will end up telling us who was the winner...that is assuming history will even care????

hangdog
10/08/2012
12:22:58 AM
On 9/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 9/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>>and all of those crags may well be Europeanised, with bolts every
>>1.2 metres.
>>
>Rather off topic, but more interesting than agreeing with the rest of
>your post........The above is a funny little myth, oft repeated by folk
>who've never been climbing in Europe. I didn't find any of the fabled crags
>with bolts every meter. In fact, I've never been anywhere overseas which
>is as uniformly overbolted as Nowra or the Blueys sport crags.

phuk i hate when this happens! ODH gets me all worked up and then comes up with something i agree with.

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