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Rock and Ice: Bolting guide

ajfclark

9/06/2012
8:31:16 AM

I read the gear guy bolting guide the other night and thought a lot of it was a bit strange. Do Americans really still recommend placing non-stainless expansions? No mention of glue ins at all either...

sbm

9/06/2012
12:34:01 PM

Wow. I just had a scary image of someone hanging halfway down a cliff, with a drill in one hand, and carefully consulting the how-to article in their copy of Rock And Ice in the other.

(I remember this recent pdf I saw, put together by the Red River Gorge guidebook authors on rebolting, that quoted a lot of mikl's work and was talking up the superiority of glue-in bolts, so clearly some of them are thinking a bit harder)

Olbert

9/06/2012
7:58:35 PM

I found on the whole bolting in America to be pretty terrible - in the type of bolts and the way they bolted. At many of the older areas which have bolted and 'sport' routes, the only acceptable bolting method is ground up - meaning people place the bolts where they can rather than where they need to be. This effected places such as the Joshua Tree, Yosemite, the Gunks to name the ones I remember.

The second thing is that there are very few places which use glue-ins despite there being a multitude of examples of shitty rock with shitty fixed hangers. Indian Creek, Red Rocks, Red River Gorge (though clearly that's changing) and probably dozens of other sandstone crags I didn't visit had loose fixed hangers placed next to not that old fixed hanger holes.

In soft sandstone (and I mean soft! Red Rocks and Indian Creek are so soft that there are deep (~1-2inch) wear ruts from people toproping in the rock!) mechanical bolts grind out the rock over time and become loose. They have to be continually tightened and eventually they reach the end of their thread and can't be tightened any more. They then replace the loose bolt with another mechanical bolt for the process to begin all over again.

I remember climbing on routes in Red Rocks that had almost every single bolt loose, and not having a spanner, I tightened them by hand (not a confidence building experience) and these were otherwise brand new shiny hardware!

All the loose fixed hanger problems are so easily fixed by glue ins - they just don't use them. ...well clearly they are slowly starting to use them at some places

[end rant]

ajfclark

9/06/2012
8:15:00 PM

You can read the article here: http://www.rockandice.com/rock-and-ice-digital-editions

Pages 74-75. Click the 4th dot in the bottom row and then the set of pages 3rd from the right. Or type 74 in the little box at the top right and hit enter.

nmonteith

11/06/2012
10:12:47 PM

Americans just don't seem to understand glue-ins at all. The handful I have seen at Red River & NRG were all sticking out a mile (not recessed) and a mess of glue (or even worse - no glue visible around the bolt at all!). Talking to local developers they just seem to have never been educated about glue-ins at all.

And at Red River I have seen totally rusted out expansions (less than 5 years old) rebolted with non stainless expansions - which are already rusting! Amazing shortsightedness.

Superstu

12/06/2012
7:26:36 AM

Pretzl's instructions for their batinox ring bolt doesn't show recessing. The batinox is a kinda squashed up ring, does this shape avoid problems with torsion?

ajfclark

12/06/2012
7:46:55 AM

On 11/06/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>And at Red River I have seen totally rusted out expansions (less than
>5 years old) rebolted with non stainless expansions - which are already
>rusting! Amazing shortsightedness.

Is it worth writing to the ed of R&I to get something in the letters section pointing out that the advice in the column isn't really good?

nmonteith

12/06/2012
8:36:54 AM

On 12/06/2012 Superstu wrote:
>Pretzl's instructions for their batinox ring bolt doesn't show recessing.
>The batinox is a kinda squashed up ring, does this shape avoid problems
>with torsion?

Yes, the pretzel rings have a square shaft so you don't need to recess them. You just need to be a squillianaire to afford them. The ones I have seen at Red River were normal Fixe rings.

Superstu

12/06/2012
8:46:46 AM

On 11/06/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>Americans just don't seem to understand glue-ins at all. The handful I
>have seen at Red River & NRG were all sticking out a mile (not recessed)

The "RRG how to bolt" PDF that sbm linked to earlier in this thread seems to encourage this practice, or am I reading it wrong? Either way, if that was my how-to-bolt-guide, I'd probably not think to recess them.

davepalethorpe

12/06/2012
9:32:09 AM

On 12/06/2012 Superstu wrote:
>The "RRG how to bolt" PDF that sbm linked to earlier in this thread seems
>to encourage this practice, or am I reading it wrong? Either way, if that
>was my how-to-bolt-guide, I'd probably not think to recess them.
>

I don't think you are reading it wrong!

gfdonc

12/06/2012
10:35:31 AM

On 12/06/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>Is it worth writing to the ed of R&I to get something in the letters section
>pointing out that the advice in the column isn't really good?

Yep, especially since I notice (thanks for the distraction) that he recommends placing stainless steel in places like Maine and Thailand. Maine might be OK, but the effects of stress corrosion on stainless in Thailand is well known.

Jim Titt

12/06/2012
4:48:37 PM

As far as I am aware no manufacturer specifies recessing the eye, Fixe used to have an installation video on their website which showed doing this but it was clearly labelled `unnoficial´. It doesn´t appear to be there anymore but maybe I didn´t search too hard! (There are differences in the advice given on the Fixe Hardware website which belongs to the US importer and the original Fixe website from techRock).
There are two reasons for this:- There is no any provision in the EN testing for this to be done, clearly if unlimited manipulation of the test block was permitted almost anything would pass, we could even drill two holes and thread something through. Also the eye requirements for EN959 would not be achieved if the head is recessed too far as the standard test bars would no longer fit through, while the standard shows this as a stand-alone test the rquirements must be fulfilled when the bolt is installed as specified. It is very unlikely that any bolt has been certified with the head recessed.

Strength wise it makes no discernable difference, resistance to twisting it might do something but this is supposed to be incoporated into the bolt design by for example angling the end, not the placement (this is only relevant for UIAA, EN has no torque requirement). However the drawback of not recessing with certain designs is that the rope can be pulled up into the angle between the bolt and the rock which makes further progress difficult to say the least.

nmonteith

12/06/2012
5:30:11 PM

...and in the real world bolts placed in Bluies sandstone that are not recessed work loose quickly and eventually fall out.

TonyH

12/06/2012
6:02:49 PM

...and are placed just ever so slightly out of reach...

One Day Hero

12/06/2012
6:09:14 PM

Meh, it's a couple of dudes who want to be the global authority on all things bolting without doing the work required to be the global authority (i.e. travel the world and learn about what works and doesn't work in every location).

The bit which cracks me up is Jim Titt's logic for not recessing rings. It seems the only reason offered is that it would make a standardised lab test harder to design. So the recommendation is to place bolts in a way which has been demonstrated to have a couple of disadvantages and no advantages, just because it simplifies the task of lab testing the bolt design?!

Jim Titt

12/06/2012
7:33:21 PM

On 12/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Meh, it's a couple of dudes who want to be the global authority on all
>things bolting without doing the work required to be the global authority
>(i.e. travel the world and learn about what works and doesn't work in every
>location).
>
I´ve no idea about Gear Guy on Rock and Ice so your criticism may be valid, certainly some of the things the Americans are fixed on with bolting are a bit different to the rest of the world. I´ll be travelling across the world to the ASCA convention in Las Vegas to see things for myself and talk to them. The Red River pdf was written by Rick Weber, he is an engineer with considerable knowledge of bolting sandstone and who has done more testing in sandstone in the USA than anyone else. He is the owner of Muir Valley which is a substantial area in the Red River area.

>The bit which cracks me up is Jim Titt's logic for not recessing rings.
>It seems the only reason offered is that it would make a standardised lab
>test harder to design. So the recommendation is to place bolts in a way
>which has been demonstrated to have a couple of disadvantages and no advantages,
>just because it simplifies the task of lab testing the bolt design?!

I gave two reasons why no manufacturer recommends recessing rings, not why you shouldn´t recess them but it appears you wish to make your own intepretation of what I wrote. The issue of the eye dimensions would not be resolved by redesigning the test but altering the standard itself which is unlikely to ever happen for good reason.

dave

13/06/2012
12:01:54 AM

On 12/06/2012 gfdonc wrote:
>Maine might
>be OK, but the effects of stress corrosion on stainless in Thailand is
>well known.

Yeah does seem pretty weird. Has this gear guy ever been to Thailand? I don't think any climber whether they have an interest in gear or not can climb there without hearing about the bolting issues; with people wearing Ti project Tshirts around etc. its hard to miss. Doesn't do much for the credibility of the article!

nmonteith

13/06/2012
11:42:38 AM

"Thailand" is big place. Not all climbing in Thailand is on the beach down south. There is plenty of crags up north well away from salt water.

There are 18 messages in this topic.