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The most dangerous time of your life!!?

oldtraddad

16-Mar-2012
2:57:50 PM

The forum on the solo rockclimbing death at camels hump refered to a 47 year old who tragically died climbing.
I am 47 and am pondering the losses of Athol Whimp, John Bachar, Kurt Albert, Col Reese and in fact many more within my age profile that have passed away climbing and mountaineering.
I used to think of how much luck I had to survive the learning years, the gung ho years and the consolidation years.

It ponders the question; When is the most dangerous time in our lives as climbers??


MrsM10iswhereitsat.

16-Mar-2012
3:14:33 PM

On 16/03/2012 oldtraddad wrote:
>When is the most dangerous time in our lives as climbers??

Is this a trick question Mr oldtraddad? If it is, then I offer up the following answers.

When one becomes a member of the lovely Chockstone site.

And if that is not dangerous enough then; when one contemplates giving up trad climbing for bouldering (or tyroleaning, as Derek my M10 love informs me is the new vogue these days, citing it's popularity being enough to cause aging Natimuk climbers to travel to Qld in order to participate!).


kuu

16-Mar-2012
3:20:38 PM

On 16/03/2012 MrsM10iswhereitsat wrote:
>
>And if that is not dangerous enough then; when one contemplates giving
>up trad climbing for bouldering (or tyroleaning, as Derek my M10 love informs
>me is the new vogue these days, citing it's popularity being enough to
>cause aging Natimuk climbers to travel to Qld in order to participate!).
>
I'd suggest that those ageing Natimuk people you refer to are not so much climbers as swingers!


nmonteith

16-Mar-2012
3:26:15 PM

I was certainly reckless when young, but have now become complacent. I'm not sure sure which is worse. I certainly find myself doing things automatically when it comes to tying in, attaching biners and rapping. Trying to force myself to consciously check what I am doing is the tricky bit these days. However, some of the dumb shit I survived from ignorance and ego when I was young surprises me. I'm not sure if it was just the bold style of climbing in the 80s/90s or if I was young and dumb - but my mates and I were always doing dangerous stuff to out do each other. I find I am now scaredy cat belaying people doing that sort of stuff!

gfdonc

16-Mar-2012
3:34:52 PM

On 16/03/2012 kuu wrote:
>I'd suggest that those ageing Natimuk people you refer to are not so much
>climbers as swingers!

Gold.


MrsM10iswhereitsat.

16-Mar-2012
3:35:13 PM

On 16/03/2012 kuu wrote:
>I'd suggest that those ageing Natimuk people you refer to are not so much
>climbers as swingers!

Do you mean on a tyrolean Mr kuu, or the next fad (something to do with bridges I am told), to be reflected in the extreme danger mirror that Mr Cicada fellow is holding up?

Or are you being devious while sipping your afternoon cup of tea dearie?


kuu

16-Mar-2012
3:43:37 PM

On 16/03/2012 MrsM10iswhereitsat wrote:
>On 16/03/2012 kuu wrote:
>>I'd suggest that those ageing Natimuk people you refer to are not so
>much
>>climbers as swingers!
>
>Do you mean on a tyrolean Mr kuu, or the next fad (something to do with
>bridges I am told), to be reflected in the extreme danger mirror that Mr
>Cicada fellow is holding up?
>
>Or are you being devious while sipping your afternoon cup of tea dearie?

Yes!

Nick C

16-Mar-2012
4:36:58 PM

Oldtraddad

Add Todd Skinner (51).

I am also 47 years old and have these sort of thoughts too.

Without doubt I think your first 5 years of climbing are high risk before you (hopefully) attain some competence in what you are doing.

The nature of climbing is such that one small lapse of concentration or one chance event can mean game over. If you have been climbing for 30 years the odds have got to catch up with you.


billk

16-Mar-2012
5:13:51 PM

On 16/03/2012 Nick C wrote:
>The nature of climbing is such that one small lapse of concentration or
>one chance event can mean game over. If you have been climbing for 30 years
>the odds have got to catch up with you.
>

I don't reckon it really works quite like that. Whether you have been climbing one year or thirty, it is the odds of game over within the next year that matter. It's not like you have a quota of "get out of jail free" cards which you use up as you turn into an old fart.

You could count up the number of deaths in a number of age ranges, plus count up the number of people in those age ranges climbing. I would predict you wouldn't find a big age effect. (Remember, the deaths listed on this thread were selected on the basis of looking for deaths within a particular age range.)

You could also count up the number of deaths among people within different experience ranges (ie: number of years climbing). You would probably be more likely to find something there.

Any epidemiologists on Chocky want to write an NHMRC application?

oldtraddad

16-Mar-2012
5:15:05 PM

Thanks Nic
Yes Todd, some collegues in NZ the great Paul Scaife , Will Maqueen and Anton Whopris come to mind to. Too many.


cruze

16-Mar-2012
5:17:58 PM

Pretty heavy. As you know climbing is high consequence stuff, even if most of the time it is low risk (certainly cragging anyways). Perhaps the most dangerous time of our climbing lives is when we cut corners, become complacent or forget to look where we step...

One thing is certain, however, that whether we give up climbing before it kills us or not, we all die eventually so we might as well do something that we enjoy.

Perhaps your radar is more attuned to people of your age losing their lives, when on balance the stats probably favour inexperienced people dying(?)


billk

16-Mar-2012
5:23:03 PM

On 16/03/2012 cruze wrote:
>>One thing is certain, however, that whether we give up climbing before
>it kills us or not, we all die eventually so we might as well do something
>that we enjoy.
>

I would go further than that: risky physical activities like climbing save more lives than they take.


Pat

16-Mar-2012
6:16:04 PM

The most dangerous time in your life to climb is just when you are clipping into your abseil.


JamesMc

16-Mar-2012
6:18:29 PM

When you're a rock climber turned alpine climber in the 1980s.

JamesMc


Macciza

16-Mar-2012
6:25:35 PM

On 16/03/2012 oldtraddad wrote:
>It ponders the question; When is the most dangerous time in our lives
>as climbers??
There are equally as many tales of elders surviving whilst the youngers didn't - Diemberger/Bauer

It is the 'now' when we are climbing that is most dangerous - gravity has no respect of age, shit happens .
One's abilities, perceptions, focus, control etc change over time as climbers so there is no real answer
Every climb without a fall is essentially a solo, and many roped falls are death averted.
I still sometimes 'climb like a kid' and do the sorts of 'silly things' I survived as a kid - it still seems to work . . .
It is the moment that matters - I think it has always been that way, even when younger, win or lose . . .
That said, it is also the safest time because we are masters of our own safety and accept the consequences

Either that or it's the times when we are being transported to go climbing and our lives are completely out of or hands and we equally risk death at every moment but with nowhere near the control we have when soloing, now that's dangerous . .
And seriously would you prefer it to be a drunk driver, food-poisoning or industrial accident?
Cheers
MM


miguel75

16-Mar-2012
6:44:34 PM

On 16/03/2012 oldtraddad wrote:
>It ponders the question; When is the most dangerous time in our lives
>as climbers??

The drive to the crag?


davidn

16-Mar-2012
7:02:54 PM

On 16/03/2012 miguel75 wrote:
>On 16/03/2012 oldtraddad wrote:
>>It ponders the question; When is the most dangerous time in our lives
>>as climbers??
>
>The drive to the crag?

I know that is tongue in cheek, but Will Gadd disagrees and for good reason:

http://www.cbc.ca/ontariotoday/2012/01/31/tuesday-will-gadd-gives-risk-a-rethink/

I've personally always been of the opinion that alpine mountaineering is just rolling craps. Where weather can kill you at any moment you are running a risk above and beyond the risk of being incapable of doing what you need to do to get up the climb. Others will disagree, without doubt. They may actually be good enough to avoid the stats. Tim McCartney-Snape is one person who seems to be immortal, for example. I hope he continues to be.

As for soloing, climbing sketchy run-out trad climbs with dangerous fall potential, etc... When compared to climbing for fun rather than risk, it's like playing roulette versus bridge. If you play roulette enough, you will lose, period. If you play bridge well, you may not lose. Hence why so many people give up soloing and climbing stupidly dangerous things as they age. Life's good. Think Alex Honnold is going to solo 5.10+ when he's 60? Maybe he will. But should every 60 year old follow?


miguel75

16-Mar-2012
9:34:48 PM

On 16/03/2012 Useful wrote:
>On 16/03/2012 miguel75 wrote:
>>On 16/03/2012 oldtraddad wrote:
>>>It ponders the question; When is the most dangerous time in our lives
>>>as climbers??
>>
>>The drive to the crag?
>
>I know that is tongue in cheek, but Will Gadd disagrees and for good reason:

When I first read Will's article I was slightly peeved by his tone, and I can't really vocalise why. Maybe it will come later...

My comment was mostly tongue in cheek but I don't agree with Will's view, 'And I am increasingly certain that if anyone spends enough time in the mountains, he or she will die there." In my experience anyone that spends enough time living will die! Lots of people die while doing everyday things like eating breakfast, driving a car or even trying to sleep on train tracks...

In an alpine mountaineering setting I can understand his point. Real mountains are harsh, inhospitable places that will try their darndest to kill you. From a climbing weekend warriors point of view (weekend warrior meaning someone who indulges in a passion while maintaining a 'real' life/job, and I'm going to make an assumption that ~90% of chockstoners are in the same weekend warrior boat as me), we're simply not dying in droves because of our chosen sport. Unfortunately we do lose a brother/sister of the rope, it seems too frequently, though even professional climbers who do nothing but climb day in and day out aren't dying in droves. On the other hand each of us probably have a 'too' large list of friends, aquaintances and loved ones who have died from cancer, road carnage, acts of violence or from any number of random incidents.

I'm not sure why I'm feeling this but to me his view seems to say; my passion is way more hardcore than what you everyday people could even contemplate so please don't compare your safe and squishy existance to my wild and dangerous one... I could die doing what I love! You'll just die doing what you do.


ChuckNorris

16-Mar-2012
9:54:54 PM

Quite frankly miguel you can't compare a weekend warrior with people who spend time in and push boundaries in the mountains.

You are pushing for a FWOTW award if you keep this one up.

Jayford4321

16-Mar-2012
9:58:59 PM

On 16/03/2012 bomber pro wrote:
>Quite frankly miguel you can't compare a weekend warrior with people who
>spend time in and push boundaries in the mountains.
>
>You are pushing for a FWOTW award if you keep this one up.

We respect your opinion boomer because we know that you know about such things, being able to tie knots one handed and all.

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